1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

thats could be a solid solution. but doesnt that just mean when the next attack hits it goes off?

my beef with alpha strike BS is that you dont get a chance to play... you either have higher pilot skill or you get nuked. getting to do some stuff while your ship bleeds out would change that. maybe make it resolve at end of turn?

It means the next attack with an uncancelled crit will make it go boom indeed.

This does mean that saving your tokens for the second attack coming becomes a valid choice. It means as well that the alpha strike is not completely removed, just delayed. If you fire 3 harpoons on your target, there is a good chance that two will go off, doing still solid alpha strike, but the third one might go off next turn or maybe even never.

Besides, getting nuked is not mandatory anyway. Rushing to range 1, getting out of arc and getting out of range are all legit options to reduce the alpha strike anyway. With the Nus + QD List for example you get usually two harpoons off, but not a third. Which would mean that the chance to trigger ONE of the missiles in the first combat turn is solid, but the second most likely goes off in the 2nd combat turn … and might be even delayed to the 3rd, because QD alone is no guarantee to trigger the condition and might have been taken off the board himself in turn one. Concussion missiles actually do bring a solid alpha strike as well … and I believe if you delay the harpoons as suggested we would see concussions and cruise missiles again.

1 hour ago, Vordyn said:

To be honest this is what I'm expecting :

This makes a lot of sense to me.

I wanna see the condition only applied if the attack deals at least one damage card.

It's not a perfect fix, but it's a massive downgrade in the alpha potential versus most meta lists. Because you don't get the Harpooned condition to go off until your third attack in most cases.

Maybe if the defender has no shields remaining and the attack dealt at least one damage card instead, would avoid the unpleasant interaction with ISYTDS popping Harpoons through shields.

You'll still be asking for them to be nerfed in three years time - they're the new TLT and they're going nowhere.

2 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

thats could be a solid solution. but doesnt that just mean when the next attack hits it goes off?

my beef with alpha strike BS is that you dont get a chance to play... you either have higher pilot skill or you get nuked. getting to do some stuff while your ship bleeds out would change that. maybe make it resolve at end of turn?

What are you trying to fly?

I think it's funny to have this topic right here and another one with 100% inverse intention on the front page of this forum.

Perception is everything it seems

4 minutes ago, flooze said:

I think it's funny to have this topic right here and another one with 100% inverse intention on the front page of this forum.

Perception is everything it seems

18 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

You'll still be asking for them to be nerfed in three years time - they're the new TLT and they're going nowhere.

probably.

What if we made it both 1 damage/apply condition/cancel results and made it unique as well?

At this point any change to Harpoon will immediately replace that missile with concussions. Same price and extremely similar expected hits. No condition, so no additional splash, but that is not only negative

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

At this point any change to Harpoon will immediately replace that missile with concussions. Same price and extremely similar expected hits. No condition, so no additional splash, but that is not only negative

I run Harpoons in Fly Casual and they work just fine for me.

5 pts instead of 4?

poor Concussion missiles. 3-4 hits with Chimps is just not enough to compete with super Ruthlessness/dead man switch and TL.

36 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

At this point any change to Harpoon will immediately replace that missile with concussions. Same price and extremely similar expected hits. No condition, so no additional splash, but that is not only negative

I'd be happy enouigh with that. Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedos as the go-to Ordnance choices would be great. Everything else should be a niche application.

I disagree with every post in this thread. Even the ones I agree with.

3 hours ago, Jike said:

Yeah, I get that. The problem is the 4-dice attack is trying to simulate an explosion from the missile, much like it does with every other missile, while simultaneously having the missile...not explode. It's like Schrodinger's ordnance - it's both exploded and not exploded at the same time. Not saying it's a major issue, just something that I find weird

I only get salty about the STACKING condition. When 2 explode at once I get super confused and frustrated lol.

4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

isnt that the point?

less ps alpha strike garbage making the game not fun.

one less thing fueling the P.S. wars.

give swarms and non-ace builds a chance

Harpoons are the only thing making arc dependant small based ships viable. The only swarms that are seeing play at all are harpoon swarms. I don't know what x wing you're playing or watching, but here in early 2018 we're trapped in a **** of defensive stacking fortresses that nothing except harpoons can do damage to. All primary weapons should be replaced with harpoons.

Harpoons are so "OP"...look at all these lists that "need" harpoons to be good. The missile is barely good enough to keep the defensive combo wings under control. If anything it might need a buff.

Boom Owl confuses me now. Is he for or against a nerf when #1 #3 #5 #6 #7, so basically half of the top 10 are using them. Is half of them to much or ok? And if 5 is to much, are the 4 Sheathipede-class Shuttle list to much as well or ok? ;-)

Still not sure how it gets through shields. It should say spend your target lock to fire, and If the defender suffers hull damage assign it a Harpoon condition. Also you have to spend an action to remove it and could take damage. I get that, but it should be spend an action if you roll a crit then take one addition face down damage card.

32 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Harpoons are the only thing making arc dependant small based ships viable. The only swarms that are seeing play at all are harpoon swarms. I don't know what x wing you're playing or watching, but here in early 2018 we're trapped in a **** of defensive stacking fortresses that nothing except harpoons can do damage to. All primary weapons should be replaced with harpoons.

Thank god, I was beginning to think I woke up in some sort of bizzarro world.

If we're playing casual, I'm not going to play an harpoon alpha, I'll play concussion alpha instead.

Otherwise, if both lists are competitive, you need harpoon's expected damage against point stacking fortresses and damage mitigation.

35 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Harpoons are the only thing making arc dependant small based ships viable. The only swarms that are seeing play at all are harpoon swarms. I don't know what x wing you're playing or watching, but here in early 2018 we're trapped in a **** of defensive stacking fortresses that nothing except harpoons can do damage to. All primary weapons should be replaced with harpoons.

This. Kinda-sorta.

In no way should ANYTHING be nerfed that assists the actual heart of the game to stay alive (ie 80 degree arced ships actually flying to keep from getting shot and setting up shots). How about we nerf things that reduce this heart of the game first, then, sure, well look at things like this.....I'm looking at you TLT carrying damage mitigating bas***ds!

If you nerf harpoons, get ready for meta filled with Wookiee and ghost Fenn. While I agree they are stupid op, the whole game is kind of stupid op right now; the power levels are simply off the chain, and random nerfs here and there are going to have real unintended consequences.

Instead, do all of this at once and with careful public play testing:

- nerf tlt (many good suggestions out there on this)

- nerf sabine

- nerf Miranda

- nerf harpoons

- nerf reinforce

5 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

alpha strike as a strategy is trying to kill an opponent before they get to play. youre basically trying to end the game without allowing your opponent to play their squad. that is not a strategy that belongs in any game

I feel your frustration, but these types of complaints have been around in X-Wing for years. People have griped about Arc-Dodgers, Fat Turrets, Swarms, and recently bombs, citing each as a NPE. And you can make the same arguments about each of these:

Arc-dodging is trying to kill your your opponent without ever letting them fire back. It’s a NPE and should be removed from the game.

Using bombs is trying to kill your opponent without ever letting them defend themselves. It’s a NPE and should be removed from the game.

etc.

In the end, this is a war game. The whole point is to kill your opponent better than they kill you. Often times that creates a Negative Play Experience for the guy who got killed. If that’s you then adapt. Change lists, change strategies, try different tactics. I’m sorry that your particular flavor of NPE is one of the popular archetypes at the moment, but that doesn’t mean it should necessarily be removed from the game.

FWIW I actually wouldn’t mind if Harpoons were brought down a notch- not as much as most people in this thread are suggesting, but I think making it so that you have to spend your target lock would put Harpoons right in line with other (decent) ordnance options.

However, that still doesn’t change the fact that nerfing Harpoons won’t get rid of Alpha Strike lists. Not by light-years. You could delete Harpoons from the game completely, but people would just use Cruise Missiles or Homing Missiles or Concussion Missiles or Plasma Torpedoes instead.

8 minutes ago, sozin said:

If you nerf harpoons, get ready for meta filled with Wookiee and ghost Fenn. While I agree they are stupid op, the whole game is kind of stupid op right now; the power levels are simply off the chain, and random nerfs here and there are going to have real unintended consequences.

Instead, do all of this at once and with careful public play testing:

- nerf tlt (many good suggestions out there on this)

- nerf sabine

- nerf Miranda

- nerf harpoons

BUFF DA WOOKIES!!!