Hello everyone,

My name is Velonge and I'm a pretty new X-Wing player and I have a rules clarification question about a recent game:

I have one Fo within range one of an asteroid (It's PS7) and my opponent activates his Syndicate thug (PS2) and maneuvers to be within range two (in arc of the same asteroid) deciding to use his seismic torpedoes to destroy the obstacle. So far so good this is normal; we figure out my FO is taking one damage and proceed to the next activation.

(PS4) Cap. Jostero (whom is outside of range three of my FO before his activation) my opponent then completes his maneuver (moving within range three and arc) and takes a focus action.

He then declares that he is going to shoot my FO since it took damage earlier in the turn triggering Jostero's free attack. I read Jostero's card and note that it doesn't explicitly state when the attack happens but confidently offer that since Jostero was outside of range three when my FO suffered the damage that even though his ability likely triggered he was not within range to perform the attack. Further even though Jostero's card text doesn't explicitly state that the attack has to happen immediately I've yet to see a card with a delayed triggered ability that could be used as a counter example.

So my question to those in the rules community is this: " Can jostaro's ability trigger and then be applied/held till later in the same turn? "
Second question: " Can you point me to rules that help clarify how and when a triggered ability like this resolves? "

Thank you very much for your consideration and time.

Sincerely, Velonge.

No, Jostero can't wait to do his attack until later when he feels like it. Any triggering conditions or abilities, Jostero included, must be used immediately when the trigger occurs. If it is not then the opportunity is lost.

I don't know offhand exactly where to tell you to look that up but there are a couple things I know that exist. In the FAQ there is an entry that clarifies the word "immediately" that appears on a handful of cards serves only as a reminder and had no gameplay meaning. Every trigger is always immediate.

There is also the part about "missed opportunity". I think that's in the FAQ also as opposed to the base rules but can't remember for sure.

No.

Every trigger* in x-wing must be resolved before anything else happens**, or you lose the opportunity to resolve it at all.

*Unless the card says otherwise, e.g. Harpooned!, which triggers on a hit, but resolves after the attack has completely resolved.

**After Attacking/defending timings are the big exception - if something has that timing, it resolves in the order 'things which are not attacks, then things which are attacks'.

he doesnt HAVE to attack, but if you dont then you gotta wait for another trigger to do it - he cant just wait and then suddenly do it at a later time.

Thanks for the heads up guys,

My initial thought agrees with you, my next step is finding some supporting rules documentation since the opponent in this example is a friend of mine.

I'll start with the doc's you listed above: Immediately + missed opportunity.

Any additional documents that can be used as a clarification are greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.

2 hours ago, Velonge said:

My initial thought agrees with you, my next step is finding some supporting rules documentation since the opponent in this example is a friend of mine.

There is none because you don't need rules against stuff when there is no rule saying you can. The burden of proof is on your side. The only defence you have is 'Show me where it says that'.

Here's the hint: it doesn't.

FAQ page 6

Occasionally, players forget to resolve important effects during the course of
a game. At formal and premier events, once an opportunity is missed and play
has proceeded past that timing window, the opportunity is lost:
• If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded
to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed,
etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action.

•If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing
window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the
Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a later time.

@Velonge The key point here is "specific timing windows". Captain Jostero triggers immediately after an enemy ship suffers damage that's not from an attack. So you now proceed to making an attack on that ship (if it's in range and arc). If you proceed to the next ship activation (even Jostero's), you have just closed that "specific timing window" and that particular attack opportunity is lost. This doesn't mean Jostero's ability is wasted, because another ship may suffer non-combat damage and trigger him again.

Specific timing windows can sometimes be short or long, but usually when you proceed to a next step, that window closes. If you could hold things over in this game in the manner you suggest, the timings would get so confusing, there would be triggers that were there before that aren't there now, and the whole game would begin to fall apart rapidly.

X-wing is VERY sequential in its game mechanic. Basically any time you do anything , it could create a possible trigger for an ability, so take any freebies the game offers you when you can.

11 hours ago, Arachneo said:

FAQ page 6

He's not talking about forgetting, though. That won't help him.

On 5/2/2018 at 3:52 AM, Velonge said:

So my question to those in the rules community is this: " Can jostaro's ability trigger and then be applied/held till later in the same turn? "

...

Cap. Jostero (whom is outside of range three of my FO before his activation) my opponent then completes his maneuver (moving within range three and arc) and takes a focus action.

He then declares that he is going to shoot my FO since it took damage earlier in the turn triggering Jostero's free attack.

2 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

He's not talking about forgetting, though. That won't help him.

That helps in clarification for "timing window".

For better explanation and beggining with the question:

After an enemy ship takes damage. (Timing window 1 opened)

Jostero moves (Timing window 1 closed) [anothers Timing windows (after reveal your dial, after perform maneuver,...) are opened and can trigger effects. There are some various Timing windows passed]

Jostero make action (Timing window x)

Jostero can't go to Timing window 1 to resolve her ability, either to delay his ability or to have forgotten it. There is not the appropiate Timing window and Jostero can't attack two times in the Combat fase. There is no option, equally as anybody can't delay his action to take a Target Lock if after all moves they have a ship in range.

THat's... one way to look at it.

It's better to look at it like this:

If ANYTHING happens in between the ship taking damage and Jostero's ability, and it's not your opponent doing something triggered by the same damage being taken, when they have init (e.g. Quickdraw's ability, Chewbacca crew, etc), or you doing something else with the same trigger*, then you missed your chance to use Jostero's ability, and you'll have to wait until another trigger occurs for it.

If you're rolling damage for a Bomblet, and you roll and damage ship a, you have to decide right there, if you want to use Jostero's ability, before any other ships roll. If ship B rolls, you missed your chance to attack ship A, but you can now attack ship B.

If a ship hits a conner net, you have to decide right then and there whether to attack it. If another ship moves, you've lost your chance.

And so on.

The ability has to be the first thing that happens after the damage is taken, unless your opponent also has an ability with the same trigger and has initiative, or you have one, in which case, you choose the order*. If anything else happens in between, it's now too late.

*or Jostero's ability triggered during an attack on a ship that's not the target e.g. with Harpooned! splash damage, in which case, the ability should (probably, I don't think it's been formally FAQed) resolve as if it has the 'after attacking' timing.

Hello guys and gals,

Thank you for the input. I believe we all agree that when an ability triggers it needs to be used immediately or it's lost. What my question has morphed into is this:
" Where in the rules does it explain that abilities must be used when they trigger ?"

I know this seems a weird question since I know implicitly that that is how triggers are resolved. (Right away.)
But he continues to ask where in the rules does it state this? Essentially can anyone point to a part of the rules that explains that this is how it is intended to work? To be honest it feels both a little crazy and reasonable at the same time. I'm saying it works in this specific way and that should be clear because that is how " everything " in this game works unless it specifically says otherwise. By comparison He feels like this represents poor rules design since the ability should/could have included a wording that explains that it must be used when the trigger occurs.

My counter was that in general the community plays it in this way and we all agree this is how it works. His counter was more a question against the construction of the wording. In any event it's interesting to see a player engaged with the game but it's disheartening to see how distrustful he is when I offer that we all agree this is how it is intended to work whether or not the rule book+errata explicitly state this.

OK, this one's a bit tricky, because there is nothing in the rules that says you resolve an ability immediately after it triggers. The closest thing I can find for you is under Card Abilitiies, page 8.

Quote

Card abilities are resolved as instructed by the text on the card with the additional restrictions described below...

So, once a card ability is triggered, you resolve it before moving on to the next thing. To do otherwise would unbalance the game and make it ridiculously confusing to try and keep track of what has been triggered but not yet resolved.

I would suggest sending FFG a question about this via their rules question form.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

And ask them " Are abilities resolved as soon as they trigger, or can you wait until later to resolve them? " and maybe specify the case you have with Jostero just for thoroughness.

5 minutes ago, Parravon said:

OK, this one's a bit tricky, because there is nothing in the rules that says you resolve an ability immediately after it triggers. The closest thing I can find for you is under Card Abilitiies, page 8.

So, once a card ability is triggered, you resolve it before moving on to the next thing. To do otherwise would unbalance the game and make it ridiculously confusing to try and keep track of what has been triggered but not yet resolved.

I would suggest sending FFG a question about this via their rules question form.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

And ask them " Are abilities resolved as soon as they trigger, or can you wait until later to resolve them? " and maybe specify the case you have with Jostero just for thoroughness.

Thanks Parravon,

I'll draft up an official inquiry and once I hear back I'll post it here for public review.
I really appreciate all of you guys weighing in on this discussion.

Cheers,

Velonge.

I gotta admit, I'm reading your account in the first post, and asking myself, "His opponent says that... He thinks Jostero can... I mean, if he doesn't... w-what?"

I'm not sure there's anything in the rules as explicit as your opponent wants. It's pretty much a combination of the rules are close enough to clear for our purposes and also, if your opponent is correct, how long can he wait exactly? If an enemy ship takes damage from an asteroid in the first round can he wait until round 5 to trigger the ability? Can he wait until the end phase of the current round, after tokens have been cleaned up?

18 minutes ago, Jike said:

I'm not sure there's anything in the rules as explicit as your opponent wants. It's pretty much a combination of the rules are close enough to clear for our purposes and also, if your opponent is correct, how long can he wait exactly? If an enemy ship takes damage from an asteroid in the first round can he wait until round 5 to trigger the ability? Can he wait until the end phase of the current round, after tokens have been cleaned up?

There, we know we must resolve trigger right now because the reverse would not make sense in the long run... There is no clear rule explaning trigger exacly. But there is also no rule stating when they would end...

Also, FFG could really clarify trigger, this is something a lot of us have asked. Exactly like they did with the combat step. But if you go read the "Card Abilities" section, page 8 of the Rules Reference, it is strongly implied that ability resolve when they trigger.

Also, in the FAQ, we can see that:

"Immediately"
Immediately is used as emphasis on some cards, it is purely reminder text and has no distinct game effect.

That strongly suggest that ability resolve immediately, with or without the word...

15 hours ago, Parravon said:

OK, this one's a bit tricky, because there is nothing in the rules that says you resolve an ability immediately after it triggers. The closest thing I can find for you is under Card Abilitiies, page 8.

15 hours ago, Parravon said:

Card abilities are resolved as instructed by the text on the card with the additional restrictions described below...

So, once a card ability is triggered, you resolve it before moving on to the next thing. To do otherwise would unbalance the game and make it ridiculously confusing to try and keep track of what has been triggered but not yet resolved.

I would suggest sending FFG a question about this via their rules question form.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

And ask them " Are abilities resolved as soon as they trigger, or can you wait until later to resolve them? " and maybe specify the case you have with Jostero just for thoroughness.

This in combination on the FAQ entry regarding "immediately" is as close as it gets. Pg.5 of FAQ4.4.1:

"Immediately is used as emphasis on some cards, it is purely reminder text and has no distinct game effect."

If this is 'purely reminder text' that implies that 'immediately' is the default state of effects.

ninja'd by @muribundi

Letter sent to FFA rules department for review.

Hello Fantasy flight staff,

My name is Velonge (given name replaced in this forum post) and I have a rules clarification question for you about when you resolve triggered abilities.

This letter will have three parts for consideration:
1) Current rules clarification question.
2) Original question that generated the situation.
3) A link to my rules question post in your FFA forum so you can see the public reaction.

Part 1) When an ability triggers on a ship or upgrade card when must I resolve that triggered ability? (Specifically where in the rules does it clarify that abilities must be resolved as soon as they trigger?)

Part 2)
Question one: "Can Jostaro's ability trigger and then be applied/held till later in the same turn?"

Question two: "Can you point me to rules that help clarify how and when a triggered ability like this resolves?"

The key here is that my opponent (during a recent match) requested precise clarification that you need apply an ability as soon as it triggers. In our example case Cap. Jostero's ability triggered when one of my ships received damage from a seismic torpedo destroying a nearby asteroid. At the time Jostero was beyond range three of my craft so we proceeded to the next activation, in this case PS4 Jostero who then moved to within range three of my ship took a focus action and then my opponent announced that he will now resolve his ability and shoot my ship!

I countered with what I thought was an obvious answer, "well actually Jostero missed his ability to use his trigger since he was out of range when my ship took the damage outside of combat... You'll need to trigger his ability again if you want to shoot my ship."

He then read his card once more (Jostero) and requested "where in the rules does it state that I must resolve my triggered ability immediately?"

After a look through the rule book and a quick search of the errata I offered that it is an implicit rule, by definition an ability "must" be used immediately unless it specifies otherwise. (I then pointed to the use of immediately in the errata as point of discussion.)

While he thought that that sounded reasonable it also felt hollow. In a sense I was asking him to take it on faith that his card operated in this way, even though it was outside of his expectation. Further that there should be text in place within the structure of the rules to clarify this type of example.

I turned to the rules forums here at the FFA community and came up with a number of community members that agreed with my original reading of the card. You need to shoot with Jostero when the trigger occurs; even though his text does not explicitly say so. They also agreed that this was due to an "implicit" reading of the rules as compared to an "explicit" explanation of how abilities are resolved.

My request is that you can direct me to where the rules explicitly state how triggers are resolved. In the event no such section yet exists, If such a section could be added to the errata for future clarification I would be most appreciative.

Part 3) You can read more about our recent discussion here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/269093-cap-jostero-can-he-hold-the-attack/?tab=comments#comment-3203051

Thank you very much for your time and consideration; I really want to thank you for this wonderful game that you have all worked to create. We as a community greatly value your effort in making it the best it can be.

Regards,

Velonge (given name replaced in this forum post)

Once they respond back I'll post the follow up here for discussion.

On 2/6/2018 at 8:20 PM, Velonge said:

Hello guys and gals,

Thank you for the input. I believe we all agree that when an ability triggers it needs to be used immediately or it's lost. What my question has morphed into is this:
" Where in the rules does it explain that abilities must be used when they trigger ?"

I know this seems a weird question since I know implicitly that that is how triggers are resolved. (Right away.)
But he continues to ask where in the rules does it state this? Essentially can anyone point to a part of the rules that explains that this is how it is intended to work? To be honest it feels both a little crazy and reasonable at the same time. I'm saying it works in this specific way and that should be clear because that is how " everything " in this game works unless it specifically says otherwise. By comparison He feels like this represents poor rules design since the ability should/could have included a wording that explains that it must be used when the trigger occurs.

My counter was that in general the community plays it in this way and we all agree this is how it works. His counter was more a question against the construction of the wording. In any event it's interesting to see a player engaged with the game but it's disheartening to see how distrustful he is when I offer that we all agree this is how it is intended to work whether or not the rule book+errata explicitly state this.

Eh, just play it his way. It never says when you take the stress for Push the Limit - save them all for a few turns later! Make your second attack with Twin Laser Turret in the End Phase after all the defensive tokens are gone. Maybe you took some damage, but you executed a green maneuver a few rounds ago - now might be a good time to finish resolving R2-D2, etc., etc., etc.

6 hours ago, Velonge said:

Letter sent to FFA rules department for review.

Hello Fantasy flight staff,

My name is Velonge (given name replaced in this forum post) and I have a rules clarification question for you about when you resolve triggered abilities.

This letter will have three parts for consideration:
1) Current rules clarification question.
2) Original question that generated the situation.
3) A link to my rules question post in your FFA forum so you can see the public reaction.

Part 1) When an ability triggers on a ship or upgrade card when must I resolve that triggered ability? (Specifically where in the rules does it clarify that abilities must be resolved as soon as they trigger?)

Part 2)
Question one: "Can Jostaro's ability trigger and then be applied/held till later in the same turn?"

Question two: "Can you point me to rules that help clarify how and when a triggered ability like this resolves?"

The key here is that my opponent (during a recent match) requested precise clarification that you need apply an ability as soon as it triggers. In our example case Cap. Jostero's ability triggered when one of my ships received damage from a seismic torpedo destroying a nearby asteroid. At the time Jostero was beyond range three of my craft so we proceeded to the next activation, in this case PS4 Jostero who then moved to within range three of my ship took a focus action and then my opponent announced that he will now resolve his ability and shoot my ship!

I countered with what I thought was an obvious answer, "well actually Jostero missed his ability to use his trigger since he was out of range when my ship took the damage outside of combat... You'll need to trigger his ability again if you want to shoot my ship."

He then read his card once more (Jostero) and requested "where in the rules does it state that I must resolve my triggered ability immediately?"

After a look through the rule book and a quick search of the errata I offered that it is an implicit rule, by definition an ability "must" be used immediately unless it specifies otherwise. (I then pointed to the use of immediately in the errata as point of discussion.)

While he thought that that sounded reasonable it also felt hollow. In a sense I was asking him to take it on faith that his card operated in this way, even though it was outside of his expectation. Further that there should be text in place within the structure of the rules to clarify this type of example.

I turned to the rules forums here at the FFA community and came up with a number of community members that agreed with my original reading of the card. You need to shoot with Jostero when the trigger occurs; even though his text does not explicitly say so. They also agreed that this was due to an "implicit" reading of the rules as compared to an "explicit" explanation of how abilities are resolved.

My request is that you can direct me to where the rules explicitly state how triggers are resolved. In the event no such section yet exists, If such a section could be added to the errata for future clarification I would be most appreciative.

Part 3) You can read more about our recent discussion here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/269093-cap-jostero-can-he-hold-the-attack/?tab=comments#comment-3203051

Thank you very much for your time and consideration; I really want to thank you for this wonderful game that you have all worked to create. We as a community greatly value your effort in making it the best it can be.

Regards,

Velonge (given name replaced in this forum post)

Once they respond back I'll post the follow up here for discussion.

Don't expect a response soon.

Keep us posted when you get a response @Velonge !

13 hours ago, kraedin said:

Maybe you took some damage, but you executed a green maneuver a few rounds ago - now might be a good time to finish resolving R2-D2 , etc., etc., etc.

That's pretty good. Bank about 5 green maneuvers early, then "after" them, like 3 turns later, finish resolving them to regen! Use them right in between his attacks! This game precedent is amazing!

That's the kind of opponent that I'd play once, and then never again.