Disclaimer: I don't want to fight with the folks who play the game like Science Fiction. Whatever is fun for you is fun.

I have been trying to nail down the feel of Star Wars as it has appeared to me all these years. One of the big things that helped me to understand what I think Star Wars is, was when I saw it described not as science fiction but as science fantasy. Wikipedia has this description for discerning between the two: D istinguishing between science fiction and fantasy, Rod Serling claimed that the former was "the improbable made possible" while the latter was "the impossible made probable". ^[3] As a combination of the two, science fantasy gives a scientific veneer of realism to things that simply could not happen in the real world under any circumstances. Where science fiction does not permit the existence of fantasy or supernatural elements, science fantasy explicitly relies upon them.

I envision this idea of Star Wars Science Fantasy composition being like a scale with Sci Fi on one arm, and Fantasy on the other. If it tips too far in either direction it's off balance. Not a disaster, nothing catastrophic, just off from the balance point. I think of Star Wars having it's own range of balance, but I can't articulate what I think that is.

I encourage my players to try and not make the routine or the contemporary normal a fixture of their descriptions or assumptions. George once said to someone that it's about not going too far, and knowing what is just far enough. So I try to coach things to be strange, but fitting. I originally did this because I wanted the unfamiliar and alien feeling of the Medieval Japan that George observed from the Kurosawa movies. But I think an extra thing that was achieved by this was avoiding the contemporary, or the extrapolation of the contemporary as often asserts itself in science fiction.

While not Fantasy, I was thinking about Dennis the Peasant from Monty Python and it struck me how alien that version of Earth was to me. The language, the daily routines and needs of the citizen, and the strata of the civilization as far as allowing for freedom of action, word, and mobility. Also the violence of that world. I used to daydream about being somehow transported to the Star Wars Galaxy and my first thought was often that I would be dead inside of an hour probably lol.

Given Sci Fi and Fantasy, I think that many people may find it easier to identify with technology and information versus strange language and living in the dirt. Being that both of these exist in Star Wars, I wonder if the Sci Fi as the more easily relatable becomes the dominant gene. The tendency would be to slide toward Sci Fi as it relates to regular life more than Fantasy. I'm not just referring to the Force, which is certainly a fantasy element, but of the whole place, the Galaxy as a whole. Places like Coruscant might be more Sci Fi in nature, and push us toward more normal things (mailbox for my apartment, restaurants that look like 50's diners, Traffic Jams, Night Clubs), but they could also put us in science fiction situations where we might too closely study alien cultures and technologies, pushing the scales more over in to Sci Fi territory. Some of the gear in some of the books feels to me like it was too far in the Sci Fi direction. We all like neat gizmos, so I get it as to why it was put in the game.

In play we use a lot of improvisation, and that means that a lot of fast ideas are used because you are doing things on the fly. In those moments it's easy to use an existing cognitive schema to supply an answer. It makes sense to me that this schema would be something that we feel comfortable with and know about, preferably first hand. I think that in that situation Earth and its familiar things are the easiest and sometimes the best answer.

What are some things that you like to do to weight the scale more toward Fantasy and away from SciFi or contemporary feel for your depictions of the Star Wars universe? Or if not that, how do you make it feel like your idea of Star Wars?

Good topic!

I don't feel that Science Fiction and Science Fantasy are diametrically opposed, in fact I feel like they're extensions of the same theme. I like to think of Clarke's law #3, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." That paints the picture more accurately in my mind - Science Fantasy isn't opposite Science Fiction, it's a natural progression down the timeline/tech tree/etc so as to appear magical to modern humans. For instance, my cellphone would seem neato to people 20 years ago, astounding to people 40 years ago, flabbergasting to people 60 years ago, and outright magic to people 80 years ago. Of course we get into a trap trying to force our frame of reference onto this but I think the example is apt nonetheless.

The simplest way of applying it for Star Wars:

Fancy tech—>Sci Fi

Force—>Fantasy

1 hour ago, Yaccarus said:

The simplest way of applying it for Star Wars:

Fancy tech—>Sci Fi

Force—>Fantasy

I dunno, if the Force is portrayed as something that can be measured, then it follows that it's only fantasy because we're a bunch of primitive savages.

15 hours ago, themensch said:

I dunno, if the Force is portrayed as something that can be measured, then it follows that it's only fantasy because we're a bunch of primitive savages.

lol. Yeah I like to think that it can't be measured really. Like weather or some other chaotic feature of nature, perhaps the Force is too variable in its observed performance to be reliably measured. Advanced enough science would be indistinguishable from magic, but I you have something that is objectively actually Magic, then I think it counts. Parsing it to the point of saying that any interaction with a physical world makes it not magic renders the term Magic as useless.

20 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

lol. Yeah I like to think that it can't be measured really. Like weather or some other chaotic feature of nature, perhaps the Force is too variable in its observed performance to be reliably measured. Advanced enough science would be indistinguishable from magic, but I you have something that is objectively actually Magic, then I think it counts. Parsing it to the point of saying that any interaction with a physical world makes it not magic renders the term Magic as useless.

But weather CAN be measured and modeled, it's only that our ability to do so is hampered by an incomplete understanding of all the variables. I think the only true scientific measurement of the Force is had through midi-chlorians, otherwise it's a bunch of vague "this one is strong in the force" stuff.

I think the discussion of magic boils down to context, but I think it's plausible to describe it in such terms that there is "magic" and then there is "Magic," the difference being the first is descriptive, whereas the second speaks to a proper named Thing, perhaps personified but definitely not a descriptor for things someone doesn't understand and thus attributes to supernatural forces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera

21 hours ago, Yaccarus said:

The simplest way of applying it for Star Wars:

Fancy tech—>Sci Fi

Force—>Fantasy

Except that a lot of the tech is just so insanely beyond the realities of science, that it might as well be magic. None of it's actually explained, it's just "Because Science", which is just as informative, and logical as that wonderful meme "It's magic, I don't have to explain sh**"

When you have a planet size device that does things that defy science, it's all becoming the same muddy area of "fantasy" as far as I'm concerned. The details of how it works are irrelevant to the story, so both methods are handwaving away the mechanics of it. Either "Because Science" or "Because Force" are equally valid, and equally numinous when it comes to Star Wars.

And I'm fine with that. I personally don't care to delve into the minutia of how this stuff works, like so many pedantic, and obsessive Star Wars fans. I'm in it for a fun, swashbuckling story of magic and science, and leave it at that.

That's usually how I pitch it to my players too. I try to remind them that little crap like details of scifi aren't part of this game, and should be ignored.

3 hours ago, themensch said:

But weather CAN be measured and modeled, it's only that our ability to do so is hampered by an incomplete understanding of all the variables. I think the only true scientific measurement of the Force is had through midi-chlorians, otherwise it's a bunch of vague "this one is strong in the force" stuff.

Except that the midi-chlorians doesn't actually explain anything. It's just as vague and nebulous of an answer as "Because the Force". It didn't actually add anything to the narrative of Star Wars, and only succeeded at annoying fans, and making something that is by definition, numinous and mystic, clunky by trying to tie it to science.

Naboo defies science by having an interior comprised of water instead of molten metal...

A center that you can travel through to the other side without being crushed by the trememdous pressure.

Yeah, Star Wars is fantasy, with some pseudo-science thrown in. I don't see a problem with that.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Except that the midi-chlorians doesn't actually explain anything. It's just as vague and nebulous of an answer as "Because the Force". It didn't actually add anything to the narrative of Star Wars, and only succeeded at annoying fans, and making something that is by definition, numinous and mystic, clunky by trying to tie it to science.

I feel like it did, it took a mystic energy and made it a measurable quantity. Did they give us the numbers? No. But they not only demonstrated that it can be measured among multiple species, but that there is in fact a known record and certain individuals can be compared or even go "off the chart." Fan annoyance does not trump canon any more than personal preference trumps scientific method. If something can be measured, then it is quantifiable.

2 minutes ago, themensch said:

I feel like it did, it took a mystic energy and made it a measurable quantity. Did they give us the numbers? No. But they not only demonstrated that it can be measured among multiple species, but that there is in fact a known record and certain individuals can be compared or even go "off the chart." Fan annoyance does not trump canon any more than personal preference trumps scientific method. If something can be measured, then it is quantifiable.

So what? What does saying "little microbes in your blood let you use the Force" actually tell us? How? In what way? What is the biological method by which little bits of our blood allow this person, but not that person, the ability to lift objects, defying the laws of science? Or projecting their awareness through time and space? Does that mean that if I grow a culture of midi-cholorians and inject them into someone, I've got a way to speed grow powerful force users? I mean it's not mystic at all anymore right? It's just bugs in the blood.

Sure you can say "it's now measurable", but just giving it a number, doesn't actually provide anything new to the story. It doesn't help anything, it doesn't enrich the mythos or the setting. It just makes more questions that didn't need to be there in the first place. It's a frankly stupid thing that Lucas came up with, probably because he was trying to placate decades worth of fanboys who were raging "but explain to us in minute, scientific detail how the Force works!!!! Our brains can't stand to have something that isn't quantifiable!! It triggers us and we begin to froth at the mouth!! Science it for us so we don't explode!!!" So thus, midi-chlorians. Which didn't do anything at all, and was never expanded on, or elaborated on, or even mentioned again by anyone else in the franchise, including the guy who came up with them.

It was left to die like a loud fart in a suddenly quiet room. Something unpleasant and awkward, that nobody wanted to acknowledge, and all just pretended didn't happen, until it dissipated and was forgotten.

4 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

So what? What does saying "little microbes in your blood let you use the Force" actually tell us? How? In what way? What is the biological method by which little bits of our blood allow this person, but not that person, the ability to lift objects, defying the laws of science? Or projecting their awareness through time and space? Does that mean that if I grow a culture of midi-cholorians and inject them into someone, I've got a way to speed grow powerful force users? I mean it's not mystic at all anymore right? It's just bugs in the blood.

Sure you can say "it's now measurable", but just giving it a number, doesn't actually provide anything new to the story. It doesn't help anything, it doesn't enrich the mythos or the setting. It just makes more questions that didn't need to be there in the first place. It's a frankly stupid thing that Lucas came up with, probably because he was trying to placate decades worth of fanboys who were raging "but explain to us in minute, scientific detail how the Force works!!!! Our brains can't stand to have something that isn't quantifiable!! It triggers us and we begin to froth at the mouth!! Science it for us so we don't explode!!!" So thus, midi-chlorians. Which didn't do anything at all, and was never expanded on, or elaborated on, or even mentioned again by anyone else in the franchise, including the guy who came up with them.

It was left to die like a loud fart in a suddenly quiet room. Something unpleasant and awkward, that nobody wanted to acknowledge, and all just pretended didn't happen, until it dissipated and was forgotten.

I'm afraid I must have hit a hot button here, as this is waning off topic. However, midichlorians have been mentioned numerous times, not just that once. I'll spare you the link to wookieepedia.

Everything else you're saying seems much more fueled by opinion and you are of course entitled to that. But I would counter that you trust that your cellphone works, but can you describe to me in intimate detail how? Okay, how about moderate detail? What I am demonstrating is that sufficiently advanced technology does in fact account for what a primitive human perceives as magic. And yes, we're primitive humans in this regard. We can't even share a planet!

After reading Lords of the Sith I felt like their inclusion did in fact enrich the story, and moreover made the Phantom Menace that much better for me. But I'm entitled to my opinion, too

4 minutes ago, themensch said:

Everything else you're saying seems much more fueled by opinion and you are of course entitled to that. But I would counter that you trust that your cellphone works, but can you describe to me in intimate detail how? Okay, how about moderate detail?

Seeing as I worked for several years as tech support for a cell phone company, yes I probably could tell you in detail how they operate, though my information is out of date by several generations of the equipment.

And no what I'm saying isn't being fueled by opinion, there is actually no benefit to introducing a scientific explanation for the ability to use the Force. And I don't particularly care about what wookieepedia has to say, as it's just a database of fanfiction, most of which has been purged, and was never considered as part of the franchise anyway. I'm talking about the films and tv shows, none of which ever mention the stuff again. It makes more problems than it solves, and doesn't actually make anything more clear. The ability to use the Force is still just as vague and undefined as before.

But think what you want, that somehow having a biological term to measure it, somehow explains it, when it actually doesn't. As the numbers have no metric, no explanation of what they stand for in relation to any standard of measurement, or any clarification on what it means for the person with that level of midi-chlorians. Doesn't explain if you must have X number of midi's to achieve Y level of Force ability, or if you can be purged of Force ability with the SW equivalent of an antibiotic booster pack. Or if, as I mentioned above, just injecting these little buggers into someone will suddenly give you another Vergence of the Force, spoken of only in prophecy and legend.

It's like power levels in Dragon Ball Z, they eventually become meaningless, and don't actually reflect anything of relevance to the story.

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

Seeing as I worked for several years as tech support for a cell phone company, yes I probably could tell you in detail how they operate, though my information is out of date by several generations of the equipment.

And no what I'm saying isn't being fueled by opinion, there is actually no benefit to introducing a scientific explanation for the ability to use the Force. And I don't particularly care about what wookieepedia has to say, as it's just a database of fanfiction, most of which has been purged, and was never considered as part of the franchise anyway. I'm talking about the films and tv shows, none of which ever mention the stuff again. It makes more problems than it solves, and doesn't actually make anything more clear. The ability to use the Force is still just as vague and undefined as before.

But think what you want, that somehow having a biological term to measure it, somehow explains it, when it actually doesn't. As the numbers have no metric, no explanation of what they stand for in relation to any standard of measurement, or any clarification on what it means for the person with that level of midi-chlorians. Doesn't explain if you must have X number of midi's to achieve Y level of Force ability, or if you can be purged of Force ability with the SW equivalent of an antibiotic booster pack. Or if, as I mentioned above, just injecting these little buggers into someone will suddenly give you another Vergence of the Force, spoken of only in prophecy and legend.

It's like power levels in Dragon Ball Z, they eventually become meaningless, and don't actually reflect anything of relevance to the story.

Okay, I'll give you the cellphone one, that was just an example. Pick another tech and we can relate, I think you know where I'm going with that. However, regarding wookieepedia listing canonical appearances, I'm afraid that's not debatable if it is in fact accurate. I am only counting canonical references and no more.

I do feel it's important to say that midichlorians do have a metric, it's just not exposed to us. I recall a certain padawan with a higher midichlorian count than even Master Yoda himself. So, just because we do not have this information doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I do agree there's a lot left open to interpretation and speculation, and I like it that way. It feels to me like the Force wasn't always vague and unexplainable and that knowledge is lost, but they keep hinting at it by and by.

But anyway, Star Wars is hardly the first of this ilk. Many creators don't even go as far as George did to halfway explain what he was thinking.

13 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

It's like power levels in Dragon Ball Z, they eventually become meaningless, and don't actually reflect anything of relevance to the story.

That was the case from the start with the Midichlorians. Up until recent years, they had only been mentioned in the Phantom Menace and weren't truly explained. Nobody else referred to them or cared about them and nobody checked Luke's Midichlorian count.

Much in the way that Vegeta, who was wrong to rely on tech to determine power levels, and eventually overcame such a weakness as not being able to sense it himself, the Jedi such as Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke, saw the error of relying on technology when dealing with space magic. They also had the benefit of no longer having an organized tradition setup due to the Jedi purge.

And yes, there is further explanation on them (which is still **** vague) in the Clone Wars. They're not important overall to the stories though.

Anyway back on topic, the way I handle things is to not try and explain every little piece of technology. Hyperspace works at the speed of plot or in the case of the game, has listed speeds given but we follow the movie method of just clipping away or time-skipping. Sounds in space work because it's freakin' rad. tense music plays when a badguy enters the room. Space magic exists and holds many mysteries. For my groups, a lot of what is important to the story is dependent on the choices the players made when creating their characters. If the group is mixed, then I'll focus on areas of the galaxy or aspects of the universe that highlight the type of environments their characters would thrive in. I have a group with a big game hunter, bounty hunter, smuggler, driver, slicer and demolitionist. They mostly work out of Nar Shaddaa doing smuggling runs and mercenary work because it fits with the choices they made for their characters and it has been part of the story since the beginning. That said, the smuggler and slicer are also budding Jedi, so there are adventures that go to strange, natural, untouched by civilization worlds or ancient ruins located in forgotten moons. There they learn more about themselves and the mystical energy field of the Force, fight apparitions or confront their own personal demons to become champions of justice in a galaxy full of turmoil. A lot of this relies in the obligation sessions and take a different approach than the rules say. I speak with the player in private, get the kind of story they want, what characters that are part of their story they want to show up, what the general scope of it will be. Then I throw in some Star Wars-y twists to finish it up. While they aren't 100% surprised with the adventure since it was their brainchild, it follows their story and not whatever I would have come up with on my own.

18 minutes ago, themensch said:

I do feel it's important to say that midichlorians do have a metric, it's just not exposed to us. I recall a certain padawan with a higher midichlorian count than even Master Yoda himself. So, just because we do not have this information doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I do agree there's a lot left open to interpretation and speculation, and I like it that way. It feels to me like the Force wasn't always vague and unexplainable and that knowledge is lost, but they keep hinting at it by and by.

If the information isn't available to us, then it makes the metric useless. Seeing as it's entirely fictional, it's not like we can independently verify and discover the metric, using scientific method. That's why I don't like it, and feel it's ultimately counter-productive to what was likely the rationale for introducing it in the first place. And having things be "open to interpretation" is kind of counter productive to the whole point of the scientific method, of quantifying and nailing down, definitively, what something is, and how it works

However, a mystic energy field, that connects all living things, and isn't explained any further than that, is perfectly fine to be "open to interpretation and speculation", as it is, by it's nature, undefined and vague.

Anyway, you and I disagree on this, no point discussing it further. End of Line.

14 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

If the information isn't available to us, then it makes the metric useless. Seeing as it's entirely fictional, it's not like we can independently verify and discover the metric, using scientific method.

While I agree this is an argument we would likely have into old age and agree it's not worth pursuing, this bit however is! Just because we don't have the information doesn't mean it's invalid or useless. It implies a regimented, scientific study has taken place, and despite not informing the viewer directly we have been informed of such. It might not help US measure the Force, but in context, they could.

8 hours ago, themensch said:

But weather CAN be measured and modeled, it's only that our ability to do so is hampered by an incomplete understanding of all the variables. I think the only true scientific measurement of the Force is had through midi-chlorians, otherwise it's a bunch of vague "this one is strong in the force" stuff.

I think the discussion of magic boils down to context, but I think it's plausible to describe it in such terms that there is "magic" and then there is "Magic," the difference being the first is descriptive, whereas the second speaks to a proper named Thing, perhaps personified but definitely not a descriptor for things someone doesn't understand and thus attributes to supernatural forces.

Yeah That was what I was trying to say but you said it better I think that to boil the force down into science is to ruin it. Allowing the universe to have some truly mystical and supernatural elements is essential to the thing staying in the science fantasy realm to me.

4 hours ago, Archlyte said:

Yeah That was what I was trying to say but you said it better I think that to boil the force down into science is to ruin it. Allowing the universe to have some truly mystical and supernatural elements is essential to the thing staying in the science fantasy realm to me.

I agree, I like that there's elements left unexplained, it leads the mind to wander. I didn't mean to espouse any point of view not based in fact, but I did want to make sure that all those things were on the table where required. Star Wars, although widely written, is but a mere sliver of available material, and I hope we all can bring some of our more broad knowledge to the discussion.

I know for a fact that some of the EU authors really just treated the setting as SciFi, and said as much in interviews. While I think that was not personally to my liking, I also see that their work is true to that formula. Some people approach the fantasy element as being colloquial or pastoral in nature, persistent myths that are not to be believed. I like that quite a bit because it makes the "magic" elements less material, but I don't like the setting to feel wholly materialistic or to me it starts to lose its charm.

Does anyone use purposefully anachronistic elements to keep the game from being too Sci Fi for your tastes? If so could you give me some examples?