I know we had this conversation before but the theme is relevant again..

There have been many discussion about Policy Debate, including some asking to this card being banned.

Others think it need a nerf cause is just too easy too strong. Looking at opponents hand and discard their best card is strong, there's no need to discuss about that.

But I think most people agree that the true problem is give a strong effect to a 0 cost duel. The premise of high risk high reward is dead from the moment that you are able to make a invincible challenge, like 6 vs 0 (but all we know that 3 or more skill difference is enought to be a 1-1 bid result cause the honor cost is too high, specially against dishonor decks), so it changes high risk high reward to low risk (or zero) and high reward. At first look to the new dueling system I thinked it was ok, cause the duel cards we have seen had some restrictions and in theory the challenger would have the "honor cost" to guarantee the victory. But now I'm concerned if in some point we have exactly the same problems of bully duels on old L5R.

Im thinking how it can be solved? I've thinked maybe the winner would give the difference of skills in honor, unless you challenge someone with more skill (to prevent honor stealing) but this seems not very balanced too.

If we have some challenge restriction, like can't challenge a char with 3 or less skill than yours, off course in some cases the duels will be stuck but at least in this case the high risk high reward would make sense.

Challenge a character with the same or higher political skill.

That's all you need.

I also feel that duels is the worst reworked mechanic of the game. There is not a sense of dueling at all. And it is, most of the time, just bet 1 (mostly, or if you have lower skill) or you bet enough to out-skill your opponent (if you higher skill and really want the effect).

I talked with a friend about tying duels to the glory of the characters involved, but mostly because it makes sense fluff wise.

I mean, a Clan Champion with 3 glory dueling a Wandering Ronin with 0 glory doesn’t makes too much sense. So maybe having to challenge characters of equal or higher glory, or paying honor to duel a character with lower glory...

But of course for this to work it should’ve been done since the beginning. Overall, having another skill to care about when trying to duel I think would’ve added another tactical element, or at least reduce the amount of targets that can be hit with a duel at any given time.

Apart from that, the problem with duels is that there’s no way to interact with them right now. There’s no action window in a duel to maybe play a Katana or Fan, for example.

Some time ago, I posted a bunch of homemade cards to react/interrupt duels, to include in a duel-oriented cycle or clan pack (obviously the Crane Pack), and I think they made a good job of keeping the thrill of dueling someone not knowing if you’re gonna win for sure. Which I think is the way to go now, instead of reworking the dueling system (which I doubt is gonna ever happen)

I don't know. If we're talking about a 6 vs 0 duel, then an invincible challenge makes sense. Every duel shouldn't be contestable, otherwise it'd be pointless to include in decks. But if the difference is 2-3, then there is some interactivity. Personally, I think this makes for a nice balance. Honor/dishonor decks can either leverage this dynamic or suffer for it. Bully decks have to stack a super unit, which is vulnerable, or have some spud buddies, which are vulnerable in a different way. There's the added wrinkle of duels resetting the honor dials. This has not been crucial yet, but I can see it being more important in the future.

So what's the problem here? Most decks can run Policy Debate, or outlast the effects of PD. I don't know of any other duels which are inherently problematic. As long as this game (L5R CCG, or L5R LCG) has been going, people have loved or hated the dueling mechanic. I'd have to say that the current iteration is as balanced as its ever been.

I like the dueling system and how it works currently. I was surprised Policy Debate allowed the player to choose both their participant AND the challenged character... To me that seemed extremely powerful! Even crab can use policy debate! I feel it should have allowed the defender to choose the challenged character so there was at least some risk to it... Currently the card is a no-brainer. It doesn't matter who you're matched against you can use one.

If the loser doesn't give any honor, duels could be more interesting.

While I think PD is a bit over the top, I don't think anything should be done at this point. It's a strong card but not a straight up "I win" type of card.

I just hope that FFG realized that they need to be very careful on how they design duels in the future. Too many duels that allow the challenger to pick characters sets up a pretty miserable structure for how duels work because this essentially remove the honor dial from the equation. Strong duel effects should allow the challenger to pick their character that is participating.

31 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Too many duels that allow the challenger to pick characters sets up a pretty miserable structure for how duels work because this essentially remove the honor dial from the equation.

Isn't this how most duels worked in old5r?

15 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Isn't this how most duels worked in old5r?

Except that they often had a mechanic for refusal as well (normally dishonor or send home), plus there were cards to mitigate the effect (cancel or sub in another personality).

30 minutes ago, Nagori-A-Go-Go said:

Isn't this how most duels worked in old5r?

What does it matter how duels worked in the old game?

This is a new version of L5R with different design mechanics. If FFG is going to make the honor dial one of the key elements of dueling, then they shouldn't make a bunch of duels that allow players to essentially ignore the honor dial. That's what leads to mechanic becoming terrible.

In the old game we saw a bunch of fate (now conflict) cards with good abilities, which made them auto includes into almost every deck, also have high focus values (duel stats used to be able to be increased by discarding cards from hand to add to your focus pool) tacked onto them. In addition to this, the chi stat (primary duel stat in old game) was pretty inflated across all clans. Then on top of that you had a bunch of duels that had really lackluster effects. There ended up being no real incentive to duel anyone because trying to get a duelist strong enough to do anything relevant wasn't worth the hassle, when it was just easier to play any one of the many auto-includes that produced a better effect, and in a pinch you could still have a chance in a duel. It was horrible.

The main components of dueling in the new game are, duel cost, opportunity, conditions, effects, and the honor dial. PD is clearly a duel that missed the mark on balancing these things. There is little to no incentive to ever bid more than 1 on the dial so the dial is effectively irrelevant. The rest of it can be argued all day long about which component makes PD a poorly designed card. Is it too cheap? Should it be limited to Political conflicts only? Should the discard be random? Should the challenged player get to choose their participating character? The answer to one , some, or all of these questions could very well be yes, but, I'm not certain that any of them need to be changed. There are cards within the game that protect you from being a victim of PD.

Over time PD may not even remain that strong or it may end up being used just to force an honor bid. Heck it could get moved to the bin with Wandering Ronin. PD is strong now because the card pool is still very small. Losing your best card when you are limited in the number of good cards you have access to has a bigger impact than if you were to have a deck full of a variety of cards.

I think FFG needs to be careful with card design going forward...........not make knee jerk reactions to "fix things" less than 6 months into a new game.

They're not going to touch Policy Debate. It's in the game. Use it. Plan for it. Make it work -for- you.

Take it from someone who tried very hard to 'fix' dueling for years in the CCG, there's not really a way to do it that will satisfy even a plurality of players.

About 99% of the time, 'fixes' players suggest for dueling boiled down to making it 'more fair', which meant more random and less reliable.

Of course, if dueling is an unreliable strategy, then players (outside of niche flavor players) will never even explore it, instead opting for other, more efficient ways to win consistently.

Far too often, 'make dueling more fair' means 'I want to be able to beat dueling decks at dueling without having to dedicate any card space to dealing with dueling.'

On 2/3/2018 at 3:41 PM, Tabris2k said:

Apart from that, the problem with duels is that there’s no way to interact with them right now. There’s no action window in a duel to maybe play a Katana or Fan, for example.

Some time ago, I posted a bunch of homemade cards to react/interrupt duels, to include in a duel-oriented cycle or clan pack (obviously the Crane Pack), and I think they made a good job of keeping the thrill of dueling someone not knowing if you’re gonna win for sure. Which I think is the way to go now, instead of reworking the dueling system (which I doubt is gonna ever happen)

I think that's a good guess. When the Crane pack releases, it'll probably have some dueling cards for Crane (some splashable), and I bet at least a couple of the Other Clans' cards will be anti-dueling in some way.

13 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

In the old game

In your opening sentence you suggest that comparisons to the old game shouldn't matter.
My point was the player who initiates the challenge is going to go for the set up that favors them the most stat wise. That element has always been present because it's just sound strategy. At present we're looking at an incredibly small card pool so the comparisons that people are making (that there were more ways out of a duel, more ways to interact with the duel) are somewhat short sighted. We're not even a year in.

I'd like to have some kind of rule that let's you change the target of a duel when challenged by a character with more skill. Some kind of "honor defender" for that character. Or maybe a ruling keyword for duelist or yojimbo.

Game shouldn't focus about duels. Wouldn't a redirection card only for duels being too situational?

Also, if it's about flavour, Yojimbo or duellist should work only for courtier and shugenja. A Bushi is meant to fight his own duel. Such redirection for a Bushi should cost honor. Also in Rokugani tradition, the aftermath of a duel lost have to impact the champion and the championed. Your champion lost a duel to death? Your seppuku is expected then.

I am not sure I understand why the conversation about this card is about the dueling aspect of it. If this card were simply an event with a higher fate cost, and automatically triggered (or targeted a character with lower Skill) , then what would be the real complaint here?

15 hours ago, Silverfox13 said:

I am not sure I understand why the conversation about this card is about the dueling aspect of it. If this card were simply an event with a higher fate cost, and automatically triggered (or targeted a character with lower Skill) , then what would be the real complaint here?

Then wouldn't be complaints about it..

The question is the card is 0 cost considering the "honor cost" of being a duel, but in practice this honor cost doesn't exist and you can't play around it, since is impossible to don't have a 1 POL skill char in the game and the challenger can choose the target plus it can be played in any conflict.

4 hours ago, L5RBr said:

Then wouldn't be complaints about it..

The question is the card is 0 cost considering the "honor cost" of being a duel, but in practice this honor cost doesn't exist and you can't play around it, since is impossible to don't have a 1 POL skill char in the game and the challenger can choose the target plus it can be played in any conflict.

There are a lot of free cards that have just as powerful effects and require little to no requirements to play, what makes this one so special?

I wouldn't say it is impossible to not have a 1 political skill character in the game. This card is an event that has a decent amount of answers to it already. Perhaps it would be better to try and shore up a decks weakness then try and change dueling ?

3 hours ago, Silverfox13 said:

This card is an event that has a decent amount of answers to it already. Perhaps it would be better to try and shore up a decks weakness then try and change dueling ?

Then for the good of the community, please share with us lesser skilled players how you would neutralize Policy Debate, especially when played by Scorpion that runs counters to both events and attachments........

I don't think dueling should be changed. Especially just because PD is over the top. PD should just not have been a duel to begin with and should have had an actual fate cost to it instead of it being designed around the idea that the duel mechanic and opportunities to find the right duel for it would actually matter.......... Because they don't.

3 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Then for the good of the community, please share with us lesser skilled players how you would neutralize Policy Debate, especially when played by Scorpion that runs counters to both events and attachments........

I don't think dueling should be changed. Especially just because PD is over the top. PD should just not have been a duel to begin with and should have had an actual fate cost to it instead of it being designed around the idea that the duel mechanic and opportunities to find the right duel for it would actually matter.......... Because they don't.

Not sure why you would waste the time replying to me when you could spend that time just looking this up yourself, but here let me help you out:

Censure, Finger of Jade, Forged Edict, Shiba Yojimbo, Voice of Honor, Above Question, Guest of Honor, Master of Gisei Toshi, Northern Wall Sensi (non-tournament)

Ageless Crone can limit events and Illustrious Plagiarist can punish those that play them.

If you have an issue with Scorpion's card pool that is a separate subject not related to why dueling should be changed.

31 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

Not sure why you would waste the time replying to me when you could spend that time just looking this up yourself, but here let me help you out:

Censure, Finger of Jade, Forged Edict, Shiba Yojimbo, Voice of Honor, Above Question, Guest of Honor, Master of Gisei Toshi, Northern Wall Sensi (non-tournament)

Ageless Crone can limit events and Illustrious Plagiarist can punish those that play them.

If you have an issue with Scorpion's card pool that is a separate subject not related to why dueling should be changed.

I'm not advocating for dueling to be changed. It's fine

The problem is that Policy Debate shouldn't even be a duel. It should have a real cost attached to it.

Scorpion and Crane, and to a lesser extent any of the clans that can reliably splash their key cards are at a clear advantage at this point in the metagame. Dragon splash is good, but, only goes so far and does nothing when it comes to a counterspell battle.

Telling someone to just build a better deck and rattle off cards that CAN do something, don't really give you the whole story. It doesn't explain the counterspell war you need to win. It doesn't explain running enough attachments to bait out Calling in Favors and Let Go, before trying to get a Finger of Jade or Above Question. How to deal with getting your character hit with Cloud the Mind, but, not run the Scorpion or Crane splash that gives you the fighting change at dealing with Scorpion.

I thought you might have some insight that we might have missed and you weren't just throwing out an obligatory and unnecessary "git gud" response.

My mistake.

My perspective is that the problem does not lie with Policy Debate but with how easily the current environment allows the creation of a "bidding is meaningless/to expensive" situation. The question becomes how and why this situation occurs.

The problems players are having with Policy Debate are a symptom of a flaw in the environment not with the card.

1 hour ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

My perspective is that the problem does not lie with Policy Debate but with how easily the current environment allows the creation of a "bidding is meaningless/to expensive" situation. The question becomes how and why this situation occurs.

The problems players are having with Policy Debate are a symptom of a flaw in the environment not with the card.

Please elaborate.