I guess it won’t be surprising to see SA push the activations up a bit. Is it a bad thing though to have a wave that will be dominated by big ships...

And one of the best ways to bring down a big ship is with squadrons.

And the circle starts again.

(Which I'm fine with)

For the record, all these complaints about activation padding are why I like playing. 800 pt games. Spread 4 ISDs and some fighter cover across your deployment zone, and just creep menacingly forward. There is nowhere for Flotillas to run.

18 hours ago, Radaeon said:

And one of the best ways to bring down a big ship is with squadrons.

And the circle starts again.

(Which I'm fine with)

See id be very careful to make that assumption with all the new stuff wave 7 offers big ships in particular against squadrons.

I was very worried about delay/pass mechanics being introduced into the game.

I still hate that they did introduce it.

But they have so now im gonna use it. Whenever possible.

Because its effect is so powerful in the game

Thats my opinion.

4 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

I was very worried about delay/pass mechanics being introduced into the game.

I still hate that they did introduce it.

But they have so now im gonna use it. Whenever possible.

Because its effect is so powerful in the game

Thats my opinion.

See I don't think the introduction of a pass mechanic in IA hurt the game at all... but I know others disagree

19 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

See I don't think the introduction of a pass mechanic in IA hurt the game at all... but I know others disagree

It happened, im not gonna bother arguing my point anymore, not that this was an argument to begin with. But i will explain my thoughts on it.

At least they made the SAD unique.

My point of view is: armada is an extremely strategic game which forces you to make choices. From fleet types such as MSU (bunch of trc90s for example) or 1+4 (big ship plus 4 flots for example) to simple upgrade slots such as enhanced armaments or spinals?

The introduction of flotillas kept this strategic element intact while boosting the ability big ships to fight. Add flotillas, sacrifice points that could go into combat ships. Even the 18pt gr75 is 18pts that could instead be put towards a trc90, or a unique fighter ace, or towards a commander (dodonna to ackbar) etc

Passing rules however, dont stop this flotilla hate soo many players seem to have. And i refuse to derail the thread on whether this is a real issue or not.

You will still see 1+4 style fleets, except now the big ship has the choice to use SAD.

And before anyone argues "officer slots highly contested" stop and think.

If a person is running a 1+4 type fleet, their mind is set on activation advantage. Nothing to them is more important than delaying that crucial activation of the big ship (most likely a BTAvenger) that can then destroy most ships in one shot. SAD is the most valuable to them as it works perfectly with their plan.

At the end of the day ita my opinion and i dont expect anyone to agree (though i do ask anyone that comments on my opinion to respect that its my opinion) but a pass mechanic should not of been introduced. Now it has im of course going to use it however.

42 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

(most likely a BTAvenger) that can then destroy most ships in one shot

Most ships that can truly be *one-shotted* by BTAvenger aren’t game-endingly valuable; 1+4 BTA is a large ship counter that needs a centralized target. Which is a good reason why large ship lists will be kept in check by 1+4, while 1+4 can still be checked by anything smaller than a (non-GH) Assault Frigate. MSU and bombers never countered BTA because of activation advantage, so there’s no reason to believe it’s any more effective than before. Its targets are the exact fleets that will run their own SAd.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Most ships that can truly be *one-shotted* by BTAvenger aren’t game-endingly valuable; 1+4 BTA is a large ship counter that needs a centralized target. Which is a good reason why large ship lists will be kept in check by 1+4, while 1+4 can still be checked by anything smaller than a (non-GH) Assault Frigate. MSU and bombers never countered BTA because of activation advantage, so there’s no reason to believe it’s any more effective than before. Its targets are the exact fleets that will run their own SAd.

You see normally i agree.

Until a couple games ago when my mc80 got oneshotted by a BTAvenger.

Now i am more cautious

16 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

You see normally i agree.

Until a couple games ago when my mc80 got oneshotted by a BTAvenger.

Now i am more cautious

See, that’s totally fair. Because if you weren’t as cautious before, and flew an MC80 against a “counter list,” it was going to be a bad time by design. Now, you can rejoice, because you can bring SAd if you want activations to be your thing, and you’ll be on the same footing. Or you can rejoice because they don’t have ECM on their ISD1, because they didn’t put Tua on it (always a mistake IMO) and now your long-range Defiance salvo sticks. Calling it a win-win might be an oversimplification, but I really think it’s ultimately a good thing for every large ship, and adds a little variety into such matchups (where BTA has always had the advantage since wave VI.) Time will tell, though.

2 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

See, that’s totally fair. Because if you weren’t as cautious before, and flew an MC80 against a “counter list,” it was going to be a bad time by design. Now, you can rejoice, because you can bring SAd if you want activations to be your thing, and you’ll be on the same footing. Or you can rejoice because they don’t have ECM on their ISD1, because they didn’t put Tua on it (always a mistake IMO) and now your long-range Defiance salvo sticks. Calling it a win-win might be an oversimplification, but I really think it’s ultimately a good thing for every large ship, and adds a little variety into such matchups. Time will tell, though.

Youll be happy to know i got my revenge - the next game after i brought TRC90s

2 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

You see normally i agree.

Until a couple games ago when my mc80 got oneshotted by a BTAvenger.

Now i am more cautious

An Avenger on close range can deal really a lot of damage (i think max. is 28 with two arcs, ~20 with only the front). I assume that you didnt take Advanced Gunnery or any other mission with bonus ice when he has an Avenger ISD....

BUT if you see a Kuat or ISD I you should be trying to stay out of the front or out of close range.
These ships can deal a lot of damage and can one shot every ship (with a decent-good roll). When they get in range and arc.

The problem is, that there is no answer to the Avenger. There is a counter for accuracy (ECM), there is a counter for Scatter (Intel Officer). But there is non for BTA. If he is in range and if he can attack, no card can help you against it. There has to be a card that say: Only you can spend your defense tokens. This would be a counter for it (even if many would not use it).

2 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

You see normally i agree.

Until a couple games ago when my mc80 got oneshotted by a BTAvenger.

Now i am more cautious

Exactly what was the load out that allowed this?

Generally, its really hard to get 11 damage +1ram consistently, and load up 3 squadron value for BT-Avengering.

Or, get down to ram going in, 10 dmg, ram going out, but this means youre likely around midrange on the first engagement. Still hard.

Oh right duh.

If he gets Adv Gunnery (cuz youre taking MC80s...) or gets a double arc, thats way way way easier...

1 hour ago, Tokra said:

The problem is, that there is no answer to the Avenger. There is a counter for accuracy (ECM), there is a counter for Scatter (Intel Officer). But there is non for BTA. If he is in range and if he can attack, no card can help you against it. There has to be a card that say: Only you can spend your defense tokens. This would be a counter for it (even if many would not use it).

What about an officer card that said: "While defending, during the Spend Defense Tokens Step, you may discard this card to force the attacker to reroll 1 or more dice of your choice."

Or a title that said: "While defending, during the Spend Defense Tokens Step, you may discard a defense token to cancel 1 attack die."

Or a defensive retrofit that said: "At the start of each Ship Phase, you may choose 1 of your hull zones and mark it with a chaff token. Until the end of the round, while a ship or squadron is attacking that hull zone, the attack is obstructed. After the Status Phase, remove that chaff token."

Or an experimental retrofit that said: "While a friendly ship at distance 1-3 is defending at close range, during the Spend Defense Tokens step, you may exhaust this card to force the attacker to reroll up to 4 dice of your choice."

I feel like those would all be pretty good defenses against one-shot kills in general, but would still be good enough in multiple other situations to make them worth taking. FFG should get on making something like that--it would fix this rampaging BTVenger problem we have.

@Ardaedhel Or perhaps even an officer that said: "While defending at distance 1-2 of an obstacle, during the Spend Defense Tokens step, you may exhaust this card to choose and cancel 1 attack die."

I know, I know, I'm just dreaming. But I think it would be pretty cool.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

What about an officer card that said: "While defending, during the Spend Defense Tokens Step, you may discard this card to force the attacker to reroll 1 or more dice of your choice."

Or a title that said: "While defending, during the Spend Defense Tokens Step, you may discard a defense token to cancel 1 attack die."

Or a defensive retrofit that said: "At the start of each Ship Phase, you may choose 1 of your hull zones and mark it with a chaff token. Until the end of the round, while a ship or squadron is attacking that hull zone, the attack is obstructed. After the Status Phase, remove that chaff token."

I'd worry about someone who combined all those cards into one list. Seems like it'd be pretty broken to me...

Also, @DrakonLord, Lando is a counter to BTA. He's not perfect, but he can for sure usually keep a one-shot from happening. If he wasn't on your 'splodey MC-80, OK, but he could've been. Obviously that doesn't help imperial at all, though.

Ok, Lando is maybe the only that comes close to a Avenger counter. But is no guarantee that you will surive the attack when you are using Lando. Not like an ECM on a Scatter for a Gozanti, or an ECM on brace/redirect for large ships.
But all other are not really helping this much against a well flown Avenger. To cancel one die on a 10+ damage roll does not change anything.

And its a wonder you didnt include Brunson. I find her one of the best damage preventer right now. Especially with this slot.

The best counter gainst Avenger is just to stay out of the front .

6 minutes ago, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

I think Ard was suggesting only one of those cards be created.

Also, @DrakonLord, Lando is a counter to BTA. He's not perfect, but he can for sure usually keep a one-shot from happening. If he wasn't on your 'splodey MC-80, OK, but he could've been. Obviously that doesn't help imperial at all, though.

BTA and other hard hitting close-range ships is why I keep running an Interdictor. A shame it costs so much.

Sure BTAvenger maxes out at 20 from the front... when they roll nine double hits. That’s like saying Arquitens do eight damage at long range. Statistically, assuming only blanks and accuracies are rerolled w/LS and a CF, it’s around 10.96 damage. Which, yes, is really bad for a MC80 (with a ram;) that’s exactly what it’s there for. Is counterplay possible? Entirely so. But if a build can’t fulfill the core concept it’s built around (here, fish-killing) it’s probably not a good build.

I guess the thing these days if you were going to a comp and expecting to do well is that you should be expecting to fight BT avenger and have a plan for that. One plan would be to boost up on defensive options like Lando or an interdictor. Another would be to go for a mad huge bid so that he won't be going first... or a pile of activations etc. Or just focus on being really good with blockers.

To me it's a binary equation, if your list can't reliably answer the threat of BT avenger... don't take it to a comp.

The real challenge is to find that build and make sure its also a build that can deal with akbar fishing expedition... and a reikan aceholes ball... and demo triple tap... etc... but hey that's what seperates good players from the rest really isn't it. Some you can achieve with design, the rest with play.

On 23/2/2018 at 7:20 AM, beefcake4000 said:

See I don't think the introduction of a pass mechanic in IA hurt the game at all... but I know others disagree

And I suppose some people don't think the introduction of the VAR in soccer hurt the game, by you know, it's a different game.

On 23/2/2018 at 3:19 PM, Tokra said:

Ok, Lando is maybe the only that comes close to a Avenger counter. But is no guarantee that you will surive the attack when you are using Lando.

As it is not guaranteed you will die due to Avenger,s roll.

On 2/23/2018 at 6:19 AM, Tokra said:

And its a wonder you didnt include Brunson. I find her one of the best damage preventer right now. Especially with this slot.

The best counter gainst Avenger is just to stay out of the front .

Agree with both of these. But try telling people that the best counter to anything is tactical and all they hear is:

I'll restate again: as a primarily Rebel player, I really like BTvenger. Having a zone of "Yes I Will Kill You" charging across the board at you is... well, that's what a freaking Star Destroyer should feel like.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

I'lll restate again: as a primarily Rebel player, I really like BTvenger. Having a zone of "Yes I Will Kill You" charging across the board at you is... well, that's what a freaking Star Destroyer should feel like.

I like that it tells me exactly where my ships need to line up.to counter attack, personally.