58 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:Make sure you have a plan to denote Death Troopers as I'm sure they will be released at some point, and they typically are distinguished by their solid black armour.
I am hoping that’s if we get death troopers they will be accurate with a different helmet And armor. The shadow trooper is identical armor, other than being black with grey lenses
5 minutes ago, azavander said:
I am hoping that’s if we get death troopers they will be accurate with a different helmet And armor. The shadow trooper is identical armor, other than being black with grey lenses
Identifying the minor differences in armor painted black while 3+ feet away will be difficult at 30mm in my opinion. Can always use different basing for the future Death troopers, or paint the Death troopers a color other than black. Just something to keep in mind.
1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:Identifying the minor differences in armor painted black while 3+ feet away will be difficult at 30mm in my opinion. Can always use different basing for the future Death troopers, or paint the Death troopers a color other than black. Just something to keep in mind.
Good call, I am really new to this level of miniatures. Made my first terrain for this and never painted minis before. Part of my thinking is going with black would make things easier to paint and still give me something I can have on the board. On my shelf I have side by side stormtrooper helmets and I just like the look of the shadow trooper better.
I some regards it only matters for when two leaders are close together, so I'll probably just put little coloured stickers on the base bottoms. As long as I don't upset the position of my leaders picking up and putting back squaddies doesn't matter if I move it a few mm.
3 minutes ago, azavander said:Good call, I am really new to this level of miniatures. Made my first terrain for this and never painted minis before. Part of my thinking is going with black would make things easier to paint and still give me something I can have on the board. On my shelf I have side by side stormtrooper helmets and I just like the look of the shadow trooper better.
The issue with black is shading/highlighting, which can make it harder to make out the edges of the model at tabletop distances. If you can't see edges, it can be hard to see differences in shape.
You could always just have say dark blue (or even white!) Death troopers, just as long as you make your opponent aware what each unit looks like at the start so there is no confusion.
3 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:Identifying the minor differences in armor painted black while 3+ feet away will be difficult at 30mm in my opinion. Can always use different basing for the future Death troopers, or paint the Death troopers a color other than black. Just something to keep in mind.
Death troopers have green lights glowing off their very different helmets. Both are black, but even from 6 ft away, that green glow will set them apart. No need to change the armor color.
4 hours ago, AldousSnow said:Death troopers have green lights glowing off their very different helmets. Both are black, but even from 6 ft away, that green glow will set them apart. No need to change the armor color.
One tiny green light at the chin? That's not going to be really obvious at 30 mm in my experience.
5 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:One tiny green light at the chin? That's not going to be really obvious at 30 mm in my experience.
2 neon green lights using OSL will more than set them apart. Even at the other end of a 6ft table.
21 minutes ago, AldousSnow said:2 neon green lights using OSL will more than set them apart. Even at the other end of a 6ft table.
Yes, properly done OSL would.
However, many people's painting skill will not be up to OSL/they aren't aware that's a thing and will just paint two green dots on the chin (look at the normal for necron eyes/SM helmets, not the golden demon winners, the average paint job online). Proper shading of black can help with seeing the helmet is different, but that is a bit more advanced than many people want to get with painting. They just want a quick three color tabletop standard, not necessarily a display price.
Edited by Caimheul13135 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:Yes, properly done OSL would.
However, many people's painting skill will not be up to OSL/they aren't aware that's a thing and will just paint two green dots on the chin (loot at the normal for necron eyes/SM helmets, not the golden demon winners, the average paint job online). Proper shading of black can make help with seeing the helmet is different, but that is a bit more advanced than many people want to get with painting. They just want a quick three color tabletop standard, not necessarily a display price.
I can agree with that. I was just stating it could work as opposed to it wouldn't. Yes, a little more time would need to be taken. Im already choosing my black paint with the highest gloss for my Shadow Troopers. Its all in the details.
5 minutes ago, AldousSnow said:I can agree with that. I was just stating it could work as opposed to it wouldn't. Yes, a little more time would need to be taken. Im already choosing my black paint with the highest gloss for my Shadow Troopers. Its all in the details.
You might still have some opponents confusing them just because the human brain really like shortcuts (this unit is black and Stormtrooperish, and that unit is black and Stormtrooperish, so they're the same!), so if you don't feel your OSL is obvious enough, just put something distinctive on the base that still fits (like dropped equipment, or rubble, or something). One could give the Death Troopers elements of green on their armour, such as the greaves and vambraces. The indicator doesn't necessarily have to just be the paintjob of the mini itself though, it could be the Death Troopers have rubble instead of grass on the base. Or even the base ring indicators I've seen people sell who do miniature accessories. Presumably the special weapon options might help, but that's not something we can count on. In my opinion it's best to have at least and idea now, then have to scramble later, or cause confusion and frustration.
3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:You might still have some opponents confusing them just because the human brain really like shortcuts (this unit is black and Stormtrooperish, and that unit is black and Stormtrooperish, so they're the same!), so if you don't feel your OSL is obvious enough, just put something distinctive on the base that still fits (like dropped equipment, or rubble, or something). One could give the Death Troopers elements of green on their armour, such as the greaves and vambraces. The indicator doesn't necessarily have to just be the paintjob of the mini itself though, it could be the Death Troopers have rubble instead of grass on the base. Or even the base ring indicators I've seen people sell who do miniature accessories. Presumably the special weapon options might help, but that's not something we can count on. In my opinion it's best to have at least and idea now, then have to scramble later, or cause confusion and frustration.
Agree with all of this. I'm picky when it comes to my minis. But a green rimmed bass on one and a red rim on the other is a perfect way to stop confusion.
Does wanting to paint my stormies in pink armour with different colour daisies on the helmet/shoulder to differentiate squads make me a bad person???
On a more serious note, I can't decide whether to go with traditional white armour or something else . Maybe dark blue or red as the main plate colour.
I'll probably go with a base rim icon to differentiate squads if I need to.
I think it is not that hard to check a bit closer if one is unshure which black painted unit is sitting there. That's a delay of 3 seconds max.
2 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:I think it is not that hard to check a bit closer if one is unshure which black painted unit is sitting there. That's a delay of 3 seconds max.
Often more than that as clarification will be asked repeatedly of multiple units throughout the course of a game as models move around and move nearby each other, with potentially repeatedly picking up the mini to check the helmet if neither player remembers/can tell otherwise. Picking up a mini can cause the location to change, which might matter for range checking, or at the least matter for charges.
Plus I fully expect FFG to have a line similar to this one from Runewars in the tournament packet: "Players may paint their figure models. They cannot modify a figure in any way that would create confusion about which unit the model represents." If your opponent has to ask, that has created confusion. So for casual games fine, but it takes little effort to at least paint the rims different colors.
2 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:Often more than that as clarification will be asked repeatedly of multiple units throughout the course of a game as models move around and move nearby each other, with potentially repeatedly picking up the mini to check the helmet if neither player remembers/can tell otherwise. Picking up a mini can cause the location to change, which might matter for range checking, or at the least matter for charges.
Plus I fully expect FFG to have a line similar to this one from Runewars in the tournament packet: "Players may paint their figure models. They cannot modify a figure in any way that would create confusion about which unit the model represents." If your opponent has to ask, that has created confusion. So for casual games fine, but it takes little effort to at least paint the rims different colors.
I'm not talking about picking up the Mini. Just getting closer to the table with your head and have a detailed look whilst focussing your eyes properly should be enough. I agree that on first glance our brain recognises similiar stuff as the same but just concentrating for second is enough to break the pattern;-)
Just now, LennoxPoodle said:I'm not talking about picking up the Mini. Just getting closer to the table with your head and have a detailed look whilst focussing your eyes properly should be enough. I agree that on first glance our brain recognises similiar stuff as the same but just concentrating for second is enough to break the pattern;-)
That can be difficult to do with terrain and other minis on the board, especially in the middle of a 4x6 table (the typical size of a table at a gaming venue even with 3x6 playing area games).
I have been playing Bolt Action for years and the main issue faced is this exact problem: squad recognition. The game has a bunch of units with hosts of special rules, but NO requirements for modeling, painting, or anything else to make the units indicative, and it slows the game down significantly. Even when people use the correct models for the different unit types, with subtly different helmets or uniforms, but are in the same paint job are incredibly hard to distinguish at gaming table ranges.
It will take you less time when painting to distinguish the different units in some way than it will cost you in games over time answering questions about if that's a Death Trooper squad or Stormtrooper squad.
@Caimheul1313 Okay, than we had incredibly different experiments. My totally and purposefully (they are supposed to look ragtag and unoragnised) undifferentiated 40k Orks never ran into any trouble. I don't even distinguish different squads of the same type. When I muster a 10 boyz squad I just grab 10 random boyz.
@LennoxPoodle "I Go, You Go" games like 40K are different beast in that regard, typically the question will come up at most once a turn since they then have that knowledge for all of their activations for the turn. For games like Bolt Action, and Legion, the alternation of activating individual units can cause a player to forget their opponent's response from earlier in the turn while they try to think about how they need to respond to whatever has resulted from their opponent's last move. Asking multiple times in a single turn the status of a unit is fairly normal for Bolt Action.
Edit: I'm also referencing a situation more akin to your Power Nobs and Boys looking almost exactly the same, than different squads of Boyz.
Edited by Caimheul1313