Honestly, black die bombers are probably the most efficient way to kill flotillas. They have total freedom of movement, rerolls, cheap, and can attack any arc. 1 hit/crit is enough to force a scatter. Just pile on the damage. I like to discard the scatter and then attack with the carrier.

The obvious downside is you aren't attacking other things...

There are several of these discussions going already but the issue is not Flotilla Activation Spam, its not Relay, it's not how initiative works or anything else. Individually all of these mechanics are perfectly fine. The issue is how they combine to make the game boring and lame. Its not even a balance issue for me, its just the sheer lameness of facing an opponent that has 7 ships in play, 4 of which are not going to be part of the fight at all while they control from unlimited range a blobs of fighters.

Its the equivalent of The Stasis deck in Magic the Gathering... individually all the cards in a stasis deck where perfectly fine, combined, they broke the game and made it lame.

Personally I hope they take the Nerf hammer down on that **** like the world is ending.

Activation padding flots aren't an issue really, at least as far as I'm concerned. Someone wants to throw 3+ bare flots in a build and hide them in a corner, I'm fine with that. They stuck a small ship's worth of points out of play for activation spam that I can plan around while I brought in more firepower. That's a fair trade in my book. Even if they are using Relay, they sunk even more points into this hiding strategy and they can be cut off making them worthless while also weakening their squad game.

The issue (as I see it) is the loaded flotillas. Those little buggers that hang at the outskirts of the main battle. They are at long range, might be obstructed, have evade and scatter, but due to their cost and the fact that they punch WAY above their weight in support functionality means that they are quite valuable. However, they aren't valuable as a target to shoot at. Sure, a Vic with DC can take one out...but I'd rather that DC be spent doing damage to something that is a direct threat to the Vic. That is the other side of the Flotilla advantage. They are nasty little buggers, but killing one doesn't really change your opponents plans any. You didn't knock out a valuable part of their fleet. Their big guns are still shooting you and you spent valuable time and upgrades sniping at low point targets.

The concept with these was to give lower cost ships some solid options for taking out flotillas either solo or in cooperation with heavier hitters that didn't rely on very specific and expensive upgrades. Something to strip their biggest advantage away on the cheap.

I don't particularly mind flots. They serve a role, and can be effective. But I can totally understand why a lot of people kind of hate them and believe them to be overpowered and under-priced for what they bring to the field. If the rumble continues as is, it's likely that we'll see rule changes to address the criticisms being brought up. This is a way to balance them with a few small upgrades instead of changing the core rules.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Yeah.... so a lot dont. (Source. Fleet forum and regional lists)

85%-90% of fleets don't take accuracy-generating effects. That's always surprised me.

12 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

85%-90% of fleets don't take accuracy-generating effects. That's always surprised me.

Just curious, what do you consider an accuracy generating effect? Toryn nearby a CR90B? Or just H9s?

Planning to not face multiple flotillas is not a good plan, but overloading their defense tokens is A plan, too.

3 hours ago, geek19 said:

Just curious, what do you consider an accuracy generating effect? Toryn nearby a CR90B? Or just H9s?

Planning to not face multiple flotillas is not a good plan, but overloading their defense tokens is A plan, too.

Anything that guarantees an Acc result. (home one, sensor teams, H9, Quad turbo cannons. Probably should count Captain Jonus as well, even though he's not really an upgrade)

Rerolls, and set die to Hit/crit types are dice mod, which appear about 80-90% of the time.

Give the flotillas a really good upgrade that can only be used if they actually fly into the fight rather than hug the edges;

Coded Comlinks

Flotilla Only

Increase your squadron value by 2 if you are within range 1 of squadrons equal or greater to your squadron value.

You can only activate your inital squadron value through relay.

Something which stops them from just relaying their squadron commands through would also work, like a small ship upgrade which prevents use of squadron key words within range 1-2 if you roll a crit on your flak dice.

21 hours ago, Noosh said:

This is a pretty good idea. No core rule changes just good ol upgrades.

I would swear I had been saying that thing for a long time.

17 hours ago, Baltanok said:

85%-90% of fleets don't take accuracy-generating effects. That's always surprised me.

Are ECMs prevalent in your area? Might explain the reduced focus on accuracy generation.

38 minutes ago, Valca said:

Are ECMs prevalent in your area? Might explain the reduced focus on accuracy generation.

That's for all regionals with data reported. May have to look at ecm prevalence.

Why dont we just have that the cost of each flottila past the second goes up. Or you cant have more flottilas than ships

21 hours ago, IronNerd said:

I very much like to run ISD-IIs with Leading Shots. Statistics has always been a weak point of mine, but if I'm doing the math correctly, you have a roughly 96% chance of getting at least one accuracy if you roll that pool (at medium) and re-roll the entire pool. I was going to be over-dramatic and say "I can't even count the times...", but I'll use the real number. In the last 2 months, I have failed to get a single accuracy 3 times. Glad you could park an 18 point model in front of me and take a single damage from my 148 point model ramming you, that's cool...

You are doing the maths correctly: 95.4%

23 hours ago, Momonip said:

I regularly play an opponent who brings 4 flotillas, a raider/glad and a big hitter, and has a ~20 point bid to go first.

I'd be happy with something like: if Player 1 has 3 or more flotillas Player 2 gets to choose the objective (so I can be sure to get the one I want)

Hmm. Which one are you I wonder?

So here are my thoughts on Flotillas as they relate to the game and the perception of the game experience.

Before i begin, I would like to note for players unfamiliar with my play history that I typically play with multiple flotillas and have fielded several fleets with 4 flotillas. i have also played against fleets that were composed entirely of flotillas prior to the changes made early last year. I can say with authority that Flotillas offer a uniquely dangerous and frustrating challenge to enemy players, and that is a key reason why they have appeared in 100% of top 4 finishers for Regionals this year and handily in the top 90% of fleets played since their introduction. I think that Flotillas are the natural symptom of a game that rewards activation advantage, being the most cost-effective quality activations a player can field. By and large, the idea of "empty" Flotilla activations are a myth that isn't reflected in top end play.

First off, I think that Flotillas have an impact on game play well beyond their opportunity cost. For often less than 30 points you have a small speed 3 ship that can activate a higher point cost in squadrons or over time buff other ships well in excess of an equivalent cost in upgrade cards. And then of course you have the activation advantage. Most importantly, Flotillas can scatter across the board well out of combat while still maintaining their effectiveness in the above roles. This is perhaps the worst part of the Flotilla situation, because it means that a portion of your fleet essentially never engages or can even be engaged by the enemy. When the enemy does engage, they need specific combinations of die rolls (especially at long range) to even do damage.

When Flotillas are destroyed, the effect is often minimal due to mitigating factors even when the Flotilla itself was providing effective support. Because of the profile of flotillas, they will have often already provided effective support well in excess of their cost. The loss of points will be minimal. And frustratingly, because of the perverse incentive of Flotillas to fly off into uncontested space, any ships chasing them are themselves left unable to contribute further to the battle and may be left in a position where they can be hunted in turn by more powerful ships and squadrons.

I see the following issues with "upgrades to kill flotillas" arguments:

1. Flotillas aren't difficult to handle because they are particularly durable, they are difficult because they easily avoid combat and scenarios where that lack of durability can be exploited.
2. When you kill a Flotilla, the impact on the opposing fleet is often minimal. Even when the impact is greater, you are not rewarded for the effort and point investment required to destroy the target. This is especially true given the current point and opportunity costs associated with upgrades to hurt flotillas which often involve sacrificing damage or defenses to work.
3. Flotillas contribute more to their fleets, point-for-point, then many single-card upgrades and get the benefit of also being a ship activation in a game where action economy is critical. A 30 point flotilla costs 5 points per round in a 6 turn game but may be providing the effects of an 8-10 point upgrade card or even a 30+ point commander each turn.
4. Most upgrades designed to combat flotillas have minimal effect on non-flotilla ships and squadrons, meaning that any turn where they aren't engaged with Flotillas the points are effectively wasted. And Flotillas actively avoid engagement as much as possible.

Killing the little things was never the issue. So the upgrades suggested don’t serve any real purpose. Activation padding and disproportionate bang for your buck are resulting in 100% of winning lists having the same thing in them. That’s bad game mechanics and balancing.

I strongly encourage that we don’t embrace the idea that upgrades released as hard counters to a problem are a good idea. Go look at how poorly balanced XWMG has been at times to see how well that works. A better solution than applying extreme band-aids is to fix the underlying issues.

I have been a proponent for a long time if they don’t count for tabling. Recently, I read a suggestion (not sure who’s originally) that they could not count towards objectives in any way. They can’t pick up tokens or be objective ships. This to me seems to solve problems with an elegant solution that doesn’t involve taking Rock-Paper-Scissor fleet building solutions up to Super Saiyan 2.

Look at Fish Farm with that change. It takes a hit by losing its best objective (Sensor lanes is not good to it now), but it can still function as a viable list.

21 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Killing the little things was never the issue. So the upgrades suggested don’t serve any real purpose. Activation padding and disproportionate bang for your buck are resulting in 100% of winning lists having the same thing in them. That’s bad game mechanics and balancing.

I strongly encourage that we don’t embrace the idea that upgrades released as hard counters to a problem are a good idea. Go look at how poorly balanced XWMG has been at times to see how well that works. A better solution than applying extreme band-aids is to fix the underlying issues.

I have been a proponent for a long time if they don’t count for tabling. Recently, I read a suggestion (not sure who’s originally) that they could not count towards objectives in any way. They can’t pick up tokens or be objective ships. This to me seems to solve problems with an elegant solution that doesn’t involve taking Rock-Paper-Scissor fleet building solutions up to Super Saiyan 2.

Look at Fish Farm with that change. It takes a hit by losing its best objective (Sensor lanes is not good to it now), but it can still function as a viable list.

Fish Farm would become a much swingier list. If its capital ship lives and it executes its farming strategy, it wins big. If the opponent kills the capital ship, it gives up 400+ points. In a tournament setting, the thing that balances out fleets with potentially huge wins is the risk of potentially huge loses.

It would still be powerful and still capable of winning tournaments with a skilled pilot, but it would become much less capable of doing so consistently.

>When you kill a Flotilla, the impact on the opposing fleet is often minimal .

> the benefit of also being a ship activation in a game where action economy is critical.


Please pick one.

double post

1 hour ago, Valca said:

Fish Farm would become a much swingier list. If its capital ship lives and it executes its farming strategy, it wins big. If the opponent kills the capital ship, it gives up 400+ points. In a tournament setting, the thing that balances out fleets with potentially huge wins is the risk of potentially huge loses.

It would still be powerful and still capable of winning tournaments with a skilled pilot, but it would become much less capable of doing so consistently.

That's the point. It no longer becomes a viable fleet because if you kill the MC80, you table your opponent. The obvious solution to that is to run non-flotillas, which is exactly what people want. Less flotillas, more pew pew.

2 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

>When you kill a Flotilla, the impact on the opposing fleet is often minimal .

> the benefit of also being a ship activation in a game where action economy is critical.


Please pick one.

It's both.

Killing a flotilla after it's critical activation has minimal impact to the fleet. Killing an unactivated flotilla is amazing, but they tend to be out of range going speed 1.

Killing flotillas is not the problem. Killing them before they impact the game is the problem.

If I destroy 2 Comms Net after they have activated, I get very little in return. 40/50 points, which is good, but their purpose has been served. They stalled me until my quality activations have wasted their turn with inefficient attacks, or wasted squad commands, and now I'm going to be attacked since I moved into range/arc of my opponent. Next round those flotillas won't matter because they contribute nothing to the raw firepower of the fleet, and my opponents scary combat ships will be at the top of the activation order, just like mine will be.

Adding a tabling rule against flotillas would encourage people to run less flotillas since I can kill the combat ships and win with 400 points.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

It's both.

Killing a flotilla after it's critical activation has minimal impact to the fleet. Killing an unactivated flotilla is amazing, but they tend to be out of range going speed 1.

Killing flotillas is not the problem. Killing them before they impact the game is the problem.

If I destroy 2 Comms Net after they have activated, I get very little in return. 40/50 points, which is good, but their purpose has been served. They stalled me until my quality activations have wasted their turn with inefficient attacks, or wasted squad commands, and now I'm going to be attacked since I moved into range/arc of my opponent. Next round those flotillas won't matter because they contribute nothing to the raw firepower of the fleet, and my opponents scary combat ships will be at the top of the activation order, just like mine will be.

Adding a tabling rule against flotillas would encourage people to run less flotillas since I can kill the combat ships and win with 400 points.

Never mind. I really don't care enough about the subject to start an argument. lol It ain't worth it on a day where I'm so excited to play armada.

For what it's worth, I'm not against the idea of flotillas not counting as ships in terms of tabling, I just don't have any personal experiences of flotilla padding being OP.

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

>When you kill a Flotilla, the impact on the opposing fleet is often minimal .

> the benefit of also being a ship activation in a game where action economy is critical.


Please pick one.

Since this was apparently an effort to quote my post, I'll pick both:

The effort required to kill a flotilla that is actively avoiding meaningful engagement means that the activations you expend attempting to kill a Flotilla when more pressing threats are on the board are effectively wasted, and ships dedicated to this purpose can often offer little to no additional support for the remainder of the game as they will be left out of position to re-engage or secure objectives. A successful Flotilla kill is a 3-4 part set of circumstances:

1. The flotilla was destroyed successfully.
2. The flotilla was destroyed without sacrificing the opportunity cost of engaging another target.
3. The flotilla was destroyed without moving the attacking ship or squadron out of position for engaging other targets or securing other objectives.
4. The flotilla was destroyed while it was still contributing meaningful activation and/or support advantage to the opposing fleet.

That is a lot of things required to make a kill truly successful and it is atypical of the usual list of things necessary to make other kills successful. By contrast, killing a larger warship is more likely to result in a significant point gain and degradation of the enemy combat ability immediately, as they represent a more significant investment of resources.

Actually not allowing flotillas to interact with objectives would be a pretty solid fix.

There are a few objectives that are kinda safe fallbacks that don't require thought, (Most Wanted), and others that are incredibly risky if you do have flotillas (Blockade Run). Not allowing those ships to count for the objective could make certain missions much more interesting rather than "Your scariest ship is MW, and mine is this flotilla lol"

Most Wanted, Blockade Run, Dangerous Territory, Intel Sweep, Sensor Net... all would be much more interesting if flots couldn't be the objective or pick up tokens!

6 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Actually not allowing flotillas to interact with objectives would be a pretty solid fix.

There are a few objectives that are kinda safe fallbacks that don't require thought, (Most Wanted), and others that are incredibly risky if you do have flotillas (Blockade Run). Not allowing those ships to count for the objective could make certain missions much more interesting rather than "Your scariest ship is MW, and mine is this flotilla lol"

Most Wanted, Blockade Run, Dangerous Territory, Intel Sweep, Sensor Net... all would be much more interesting if flots couldn't be the objective or pick up tokens!

This certainly could be interesting. My only concern is that this might make the existing squadron builds too powerful.

I certainly would appreciate a change to say "Flotillas may not be declared Objective Ships." In fairness, I've always been of the opinion that the ultimate fix for most of those objectives would be to default to your Flagship as being your objective ship at all times.

3 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Never mind. I really don't care enough about the subject to start an argument. lol It ain't worth it on a day where I'm so excited to play armada.

For what it's worth, I'm not against the idea of flotillas not counting as ships in terms of tabling, I just don't have any personal experiences of flotilla padding being OP.

Fair enough lol

But like I said earlier in the thread, or maybe in a different one, it's hard to know without actually running into 4 flotillas. But really, the 1+4 style is very easy to beat. It's the 2+4 or 3+3 that are hard.