Oh god no, another flotilla post!!!

So flotillas are coming up again (like the discussion ever goes away) thanks to a great article on Cannot Get Your Ship Out. Some great ideas were presented in the article for fixes. I've seen many other great ideas here and on the Reddit forum. Almost all of the fixes are rule changes though. That's not all together a bad thing, but it's a bit troublesome, especially if FFG ever produces new flotillas. Rule changes are quick and easy, and may solve the current problem, but those flotilla based rules will restrict what can and can't be done with new flotillas.

FFG has another way to deal with issues, and wave 7 is a great example of that. People talk about the problems with activations and how powerful they are, so FFG produces a wave with several ways to manipulate the activation system to give players options. Wave 7 itself may affect the flotilla issue a bit as activations are a big part of it. The activation spam is really only critically useful in 1 or 2 turns, and the cards in wave 7 can negate or reduce the effectiveness of that spam for a turn.

How about a couple more cards to specifically deal with flotillas? Their biggest advantage in combat is the scatter, so why not deal directly with negating the scatter effect.

turbolaser card: 1 point; small ship only; ships cannot use scatter defense tokens when defending against attacks from this ship. (scatter laser turrets)

Ordinance card: 1 point; small ship only; when attacking ships, scatter defense tokens only reduce damage by 1. (dumb-fire missile pods)

Ion card: 1 point; small ship only; if defending ship uses a scatter defense token, that defense token must be discarded. (wide band ion beam)

The idea is that these weapon systems use shotgun blast attacks at enemies instead of focus fire, so they are effective against flotillas that can scatter to defend themselves, but less effective against larger ships where you need concentrated fire to punch through shields or do significant hull damage. They only affect ships, not squadrons, so no worries about scatter aces being affected. They are cheap, but this is for a reason. They provide upgrades against only 1 target, take up a pretty valuable slot (sacrifice the TRC90 to make it a flotilla hunter), but are cheap enough that one might consider bringing a dedicated flotilla hunter. At the very least, you could spend 2 points on two small ships to just up their anti-flotilla capabilities. Got 2 MC30 scout frigates in your list with empty turbolaser slots? For 2 points they are a massive threat to flotillas. Not your primary target, but if you get the chance, you can take one out pretty easily.

Each works a little different also, which makes for hopefully some interesting playstyles. The turbolaser is for longer range attacks. They can't scatter the damage, but they can still evade. A couple CR90 hunters or other ships burning the evades and allowing the hunter to sneak in for the kill is the best way to utilize it. The ordinance is for a solo hunter that is going to get in close and double-arc the flotilla hitting it with some high damage black dice close up. The ion version still allows the scatter to be used, but then discards it allowing others to finish the flotilla off. This has the added benefit of being able to affect more than 1 flotilla at a time if you can get two of them in different arcs.

With the advent of flotilla hunters, flotilla dependent fleets need to bring flotilla escorts (reducing the cheap factor), accept that they will likely lose a portion or the entirety of their flotilla fleet, or reduce the amount of flotillas they bring and spend those points in other ways.

Maybe these need a little tweaking (those names are just awful), or there is some obvious flaw I'm missing. But that is what the rest of you are for...to tell me how wrong I am.

This is a pretty good idea. No core rule changes just good ol upgrades.

I think you're providing solutions for the wrong problem.

Flotillas aren't hard to kill if they're actually in the fight. Making them even easier to kill will just further encourage them to hide in the corners of the board.

The problem right now is that they're such incredibly cheap activation padding that they don't even need to do much in the case of the 1 + 5/6 fleets. They can hide in a corner or hug the back wall or hide in the big ship's shadow and provide nothing but empty activations.

5 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I think you're providing solutions for the wrong problem.

Flotillas aren't hard to kill if they're actually in the fight. Making them even easier to kill will just further encourage them to hide in the corners of the board.

The problem right now is that they're such incredibly cheap activation padding that they don't even need to do much in the case of the 1 + 5/6 fleets. They can hide in a corner or hug the back wall or hide in the big ship's shadow and provide nothing but empty activations.

This, more or less ^

I mean, Intel Officer, H9 and Sensor Team is a pretty pricey kit to go hunting for 18 point flots with, though; you'd need to run down and kill two just to justify the cost, and getting a third before the game ends is going to be pretty hard if they're the "hide in the corner" type activation-only dealies. I like the proposed upgrades for providing a fits-on-small-ships threat that you can send at high speeds out into nowhere-territory to encourage flotillas to stay near the big ships they're ostensibly supporting.

>Implying you're not taking at least one of those as part of your fleet already....

IOs seems the best bet to me here. Great against spammy lil ***** like flotillas and good against big ships. No net loss in my book.

Then again, I've never been on here complaining about flotillas, I've never had an issue killing them.

4 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

IO: Not cost effective. Using two shots out of the 10 or 12 all game killing an 18 point ship. Decent opportunity cost.
H9: Best option probably. Huge opportunity cost that can lead to bad matchups against large ships with ECM.
Sensor Team: I think the last time I saw this played was in wave 2?I think..., its just...bad. Only way to fix it would be an upgrade that brings back a discarded die? That might actually be impossible with timing rules though. Opportunity costs don't get much higher than this one...

The likely attempt to address the issue are:
Cymoon, since it can mount H9s without the full opportunity cost, gunnery teams, and enough red dice to secure a kill.
WAB

27 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

Flotillas aren't hard to kill if they're actually in the fight. Making them even easier to kill will just further encourage them to hide in the corners of the board.

The problem right now is that they're such incredibly cheap activation padding that they don't even need to do much in the case of the 1 + 5/6 fleets. They can hide in a corner or hug the back wall or hide in the big ship's shadow and provide nothing but empty activations.

Personally, I find that flotillas used as blockers are far more dangerous than activation padding ones. Having to shoot at something that is a waste of the firepower is a win. Unless heavily teched to stop the scatter, there is always the chance of bad dice.

If the new cards don't shove the meta around, I would expect even more tech cards to be released with pretty high point and opportunity costs.

With hindsight, the cheap flotillas could have come with a red scatter, the combat ones getting a green one and a couple more points expensive.

I regularly play an opponent who brings 4 flotillas, a raider/glad and a big hitter, and has a ~20 point bid to go first.

I'd be happy with something like: if Player 1 has 3 or more flotillas Player 2 gets to choose the objective (so I can be sure to get the one I want)

Sir Paul has something to say:

Just hum that while Vader pops flots left and right.

46 minutes ago, AdmiralYor said:

IO: Not cost effective. Using two shots out of the 10 or 12 all game killing an 18 point ship. Decent opportunity cost.
H9: Best option probably. Huge opportunity cost that can lead to bad matchups against large ships with ECM.
Sensor Team: I think the last time I saw this played was in wave 2?I think..., its just...bad. Only way to fix it would be an upgrade that brings back a discarded die? That might actually be impossible with timing rules though. Opportunity costs don't get much higher than this one...

The likely attempt to address the issue are:
Cymoon, since it can mount H9s without the full opportunity cost, gunnery teams, and enough red dice to secure a kill.
WAB

Ummmm can we discuss the cost effectiveness of using a Vader Cymoon to kill a flotilla? Is the Imp answer really "Scrap your whole fleet. Now grab Vader, a Cymoon with GT, H9, and SA. Use this to kill flotillas."

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

The whole issue with the flotilla argument is not "I don't have an effective way to kill them" it's "I don't have an effective way to kill them BEFORE they contribution is already made." Using flots to pad so Admo or Demo has it's target in range is a problem. Not being able to respond because you are last/first is a problem. By the time you can actually kill a flotilla, it's too late.

Really the only way to understand the issue is to get punched in the **** by it. Multiple times. If you've never faced 7 activations with 4 being flotillas, it's hard to grasp the issue.

Personally, I enjoy what flotillas bring to the game and love how easy they are to kill. I just wish they weren't so **** prolific.

The threats of Cymoon and Raddus fleets being out in the wild now are the key in my opinion.

3 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

The threats of Cymoon and Raddus fleets being out in the wild now are the key in my opinion.

I was using the Cymoon build on the Vic II before it was cool. First with SA, then with DC. I agree the Cymoon is good at killing flotillas at medium, but it won't deter people from taking 3 flotillas for the same reason Sloane didn't deter Rieekan Aces. Match ups still matter, and you still gotta roll dice.

The best method will still be to bring anti-flotilla tech in every fleet, since there is a lot of overlap in attacking other ships.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Ummmm can we discuss the cost effectiveness of using a Vader Cymoon to kill a flotilla? Is the Imp answer really "Scrap your whole fleet. Now grab Vader, a Cymoon with GT, H9, and SA. Use this to kill flotillas."

Never said it was a cost effective solution or even a good one, just that it had less of an opportunity cost, since you can still take another turbolaser. I haven't done a ton of fleet building with the new wave to establish what costs are worth it.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

If you've never faced 7 activations with 4 being flotillas, it's hard to grasp the issue.

One thing that is hard to accept in any game system, even more so at the table is: "There isn't any way I win this matchup". At which point you have a choice 1. Run your fleet in and hope that somehow the massively skewed odds are fixed by dice luck 2. Be a terrible player and get what points you can and go to the next round. Sometimes taking option one is the only option, other times you have to take option two.

It's entirely possible that due to matchups you can get a bye round one, a corvette swarm round two, and a come-ackbar-bro fleet round three (that you can't engage without chasing, so the match is over in 15 min with minimal shooting), after driving five hours and paying for a hotel <--- Did that, still kinda salty. It happens, I don't think there is a fix for this unless you homogenize fleets to the point that everything is equitable.

From the community perspective, your best bet is to find a counter to a fleet and share it. As someone who almost always goes to a tournament with another player, we frequently meta strategy against other players in what fleets we are going to bring. Usually against @CaribbeanNinja , who then makes hash of it by bringing a 7 activation fleet instead of the 6 you expected.

8 minutes ago, AdmiralYor said:

Never said it was a cost effective solution or even a good one, just that it had less of an opportunity cost, since you can still take another turbolaser. I haven't done a ton of fleet building with the new wave to establish what costs are worth it.

One thing that is hard to accept in any game system, even more so at the table is: "There isn't any way I win this matchup". At which point you have a choice 1. Run your fleet in and hope that somehow the massively skewed odds are fixed by dice luck 2. Be a terrible player and get what points you can and go to the next round. Sometimes taking option one is the only option, other times you have to take option two.

It's entirely possible that due to matchups you can get a bye round one, a corvette swarm round two, and a come-ackbar-bro fleet round three (that you can't engage without chasing, so the match is over in 15 min with minimal shooting), after driving five hours and paying for a hotel <--- Did that, still kinda salty. It happens, I don't think there is a fix for this unless you homogenize fleets to the point that everything is equitable.

From the community perspective, your best bet is to find a counter to a fleet and share it. As someone who almost always goes to a tournament with another player, we frequently meta strategy against other players in what fleets we are going to bring. Usually against @CaribbeanNinja , who then makes hash of it by bringing a 7 activation fleet instead of the 6 you expected.

Honestly, the two of our groups and the separate discussions we have about Each Other's fleets would make a heck of a reality TV show....lol

50 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I was using the Cymoon build on the Vic II before it was cool. First with SA, then with DC. I agree the Cymoon is good at killing flotillas at medium, but it won't deter people from taking 3 flotillas for the same reason Sloane didn't deter Rieekan Aces. Match ups still matter, and you still gotta roll dice .

I very much like to run ISD-IIs with Leading Shots. Statistics has always been a weak point of mine, but if I'm doing the math correctly, you have a roughly 96% chance of getting at least one accuracy if you roll that pool (at medium) and re-roll the entire pool. I was going to be over-dramatic and say "I can't even count the times...", but I'll use the real number. In the last 2 months, I have failed to get a single accuracy 3 times. Glad you could park an 18 point model in front of me and take a single damage from my 148 point model ramming you, that's cool...

Just now, IronNerd said:

I very much like to run ISD-IIs with Leading Shots. Statistics has always been a weak point of mine, but if I'm doing the math correctly, you have a roughly 96% chance of getting at least one accuracy if you roll that pool (at medium) and re-roll the entire pool. I was going to be over-dramatic and say "I can't even count the times...", but I'll use the real number. In the last 2 months, I have failed to get a single accuracy 3 times. Glad you could park an 18 point model in front of me and take a single damage from my 148 point model ramming you, that's cool...

For sure. I've had an ISD I double arc a flotilla and miss on both attacks, even with rerolls. But medium isn't that difficult. Long range is what people are talking about with the Cymoon, and you need 2 Acc with red dice. And then you're still using the other attack on a flotilla. I still do it every time, but it's not the most effective way to play the game.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

For sure. I've had an ISD I double arc a flotilla and miss on both attacks, even with rerolls. But medium isn't that difficult. Long range is what people are talking about with the Cymoon, and you need 2 Acc with red dice. And then you're still using the other attack on a flotilla. I still do it every time, but it's not the most effective way to play the game.

Oh I was completely agreeing with (what I believe to be) your stance. The defense tokens make taking these things out at long completely stupid, and (point I was looking to make) even at medium with a ship that is pretty well built to pop them you'll struggle. Vader Cymoons are not an acceptable "answer" to the "flotilla problem" in my mind, I never have and never will trust red die to do anything useful for me.

2 hours ago, AdmiralYor said:

Sensor Team: I think the last time I saw this played was in wave 2?I think..., its just...bad. Only way to fix it would be an upgrade that brings back a discarded die? That might actually be impossible with timing rules though. Opportunity costs don't get much higher than this one...

I've used Sensor teams to great effect on MC30s and on larger ships, even ISDs. When you commonly have a lot of dice, a few are blank and you need a cheap accuracy, look no further. Its spectacular. (Let's you take AG as red obj too)

2 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

>Implying you're not taking at least one of those as part of your fleet already....

Yeah.... so a lot dont. (Source. Fleet forum and regional lists)

2 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

IOs seems the best bet to me here. Great against spammy lil ***** like flotillas and good against big ships. No net loss in my book.

Then again, I've never been on here complaining about flotillas, I've never had an issue killing them.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

I was using the Cymoon build on the Vic II before it was cool. First with SA, then with DC. I agree the Cymoon is good at killing flotillas at medium, but it won't deter people from taking 3 flotillas for the same reason Sloane didn't deter Rieekan Aces. Match ups still matter, and you still gotta roll dice.

The best method will still be to bring anti-flotilla tech in every fleet, since there is a lot of overlap in attacking other ships.

Cymoons are very decent, esp at range. At 200 pt, run with Sensor Team. At 400pt, consider GT + H9 or QBT

They do have a dip in raw firepower though compared to the 3 blacks of Kuats and ISD-1s at close range.

37 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

Oh I was completely agreeing with (what I believe to be) your stance. The defense tokens make taking these things out at long completely stupid, and (point I was looking to make) even at medium with a ship that is pretty well built to pop them you'll struggle. Vader Cymoons are not an acceptable "answer" to the "flotilla problem" in my mind, I never have and never will trust red die to do anything useful for me.

Hey look: Sometimes it takes two shots to kill a flot. But if you take H9 or Sensor Team + GT + Vader + QBT, that flotilla is likely to be REALLY hurt.

QBT usually does the job. Adding blue dice is critical vs flots.

Also consider as undeadguy did and use the VSD2 + DC. One of those with some squadrons and another ship, probably pretty decent.

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hey look: Sometimes it takes two shots to kill a flot. But if you take H9 or Sensor Team + GT + Vader + QBT, that flotilla is likely to be REALLY hurt.

QBT usually does the job. Adding blue dice is critical vs flots.

Also consider as undeadguy did and use the VSD2 + DC. One of those with some squadrons and another ship, probably pretty decent.

Vic II + GT + DC + LS + XI7

More than enough dice to kill flots at long range, and then attack another ship. Follow with Demo.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Also consider as undeadguy did and use the VSD2 + DC. One of those with some squadrons and another ship, probably pretty decent.

A VSD2 + DCaps, plus some squadrons, plus another ship... to kill a flotilla. Isn't this exactly the issue? They require a much larger investment to reliably kill than they should. ...and yes, I realize that all these things can be used to kill other portions of your opponent's fleet, but that doesn't make it ok.

For the record, I use flotillas all the time, two in most lists. I don't want to, but it's **** near necessary in the current iteration of Armada. They are too effective for their cost.

2 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

A VSD2 + DCaps, plus some squadrons, plus another ship... to kill a flotilla. Isn't this exactly the issue? They require a much larger investment to reliably kill than they should. ...and yes, I realize that all these things can be used to kill other portions of your opponent's fleet, but that doesn't make it ok.

For the record, I use flotillas all the time, two in most lists. I don't want to, but it's **** near necessary in the current iteration of Armada. They are too effective for their cost.

Hey man, for the record, I AGREE with you. They're little devils.

I use 3. I bought 3 of each, cuz I was told to git gud.

But really. Go try it. VSD + DC is not bad. And squads... well you know my opinion on them. Good vs everything with no exceptions.