1 hour ago, ripper998 said:

Rack has it coming...so OP

Ya know when i'm playing rock paper scissors, and some one throws rack......i am truly defenseless....

Not a fan of the list, but don't blame anyone for playing it at a store champ/regional ect..

There needs to be a disadvantage to flotillas to balance the gross abuse of activation advantage... but until that flotillas will be about half of all ships we see competitively.

1 minute ago, Daht said:

There needs to be a disadvantage to flotillas to balance the gross abuse of activation advantage... but until that flotillas will be about half of all ships we see competitively.

I think if we got to half, then we'd be in a much better place, really

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I think if we got to half, then we'd be in a much better place, really

I didn't want to look up stats, so I gave an easy fraction I was sure wouldn't get disputed

10 hours ago, AdmiralYor said:

Grats! I'm glad someone else gets to join me in the garbage compactor.

Random points of strategy

• The repair crew flotillas were not actually meant to repair the MC80. While they can in some circumstances, they are actually meant to repair flotillas used to block ships in place or prevent close range approaches.
• AP vs ECM, H9 vs XI7, and Lando vs IO are all hard choices. I could probably write an essay on the topic of when one is better depending on meta.

For counter play, picking FL or SN and bum rushing across are probably the best options. The MC80 without AG has a very limited number of shots, a good block and some decent rolls have always been the downfall of the poor pickles. Unfortunately, even then it's unlikely to trade its life cheaply.

Interesting, I used them for a little of Column A / little of Column B. They are surprisingly durable once you start just tossing a card away a turn.

I think AP vs ECM becomes a bit more moot in Wave 7. I think in Wave 7 you're taking EWS and RBDs just because it covers two of your main defensive weaknesses (squads and comparatively low hull).

The turbolaser and officer slot I think is definitely based on the way the meta is rolling and your personal preference, I could see the argument either way.

I think rushing against FL is the best option. The MC80 has to hang around the tokens a bit more in FL so the strategic jam isn't as good (still really effective though).

This took off a lot more than I thought! And has spawned an intense amount of discussion, probably more than I can realistically reply to, so I'll do the standard cherry picking.

I definitely don't think the list is as pick up and play as people imagine. It's really easy to fly a Speed 2 MC80 wrong and get blocked in (even with Engine Techs). You get blocked in you're probably going to die. I've been flying MC80s a bit of late (in a Dodonna list) and have some experience with them in general. Also as someone else kindly pointed out I've been playing this game for a very long time, and have a track record that suggests I'm pretty **** good at this game.

All of this aside it is a list that tends to win big or lose big. So many of your points are tied up in the MC80 (basically half of the total fleet cost) that if you lose it you're probably going to pull a 6-5 at best. That's the trade off, if you can keep it alive its like trying to draw blood from a stone with this list. If your opponent kills it you start pouring points.

Often you'll find the list right on the edge, in 2 of my 3 games the MC80 was 2 or 3 hull away from death. A couple extra damage and my opponent scores 192pts.

I'll reiterate again I think it's an incredibly strong list, and weirdly while I was against flotilla spam mechanically for a long time, it doesn't bother me so much here. Pretty much all of the flotillas are actively supporting the big guy. They actually feel like support ships.

I think it's just another archetype in the meta, its rock to some lists scissors, and other times its rock to their paper. Either you can play it, plan around it, or hope you don't pair against it. Sloane-Balls, Heavy Bombers, and mass MC30s really do a number on this list.

This year's reigning national champion took his version of the Fish Farm to the same Regional, he matched up against a Mon Mothma MC30 swarm in the second round. He got wrecked by it (sorry Scott, not trying to throw you under the bus!).

That's just the way it goes sometimes you know?

To everyone that gut reaction hates it (or immediately wants to fly it), I suggest you actually play the list, or play against it, or preferably both. It might not change your opinion but it will give you more perspective on the list.

6 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Besides taking 30 points of squads I don't want to? But then I need Intel so I can actually use them, so that's 42 points. But should I protect my Intel with Escort? Because I've seen people berated for not protecting Intel with Escort.

Come on, we both know how this circle goes. We've both told people the squads they need to run in order to be successful. And running Strategic tends to not be a good move because you cannot readily fit them into every fleet and make them work. Adding Strategic is inefficient unless your list is built to use them, in which case you end up with something like the Fish Farm, and you're no where closer to fixing the issue.

Design an efficient squad ball that can work with 75% of lists and it would be a different story.

No no. You misunderstand. These days my squad ball is 2 Lambdas. Thats it.

You dont need intel to grab the tokens turn 1. They wont be able to get them back quick enough

All I want to do now is make an imperial equivalent to this list

I played against this the other night. I had an ISD I, QF, 2 Goz and 4 Defenders w/ Lambda and JM support. We played Intel Sweep. I didn’t get tabled and fought to a 7-4. I might have gotten to a 6-5 if I had focused on just the transports. It’s a devious list and I don’t see any Imp list being competitive against it except maybe a 3 ISD list. I can’t beat him in activations as Imps are much more expensive than Rebs, I can’t match long range firepower during the approach, and with Nav Teams, I can’t maneuver out of those gargantuan side arcs.

My concern with lists like this is they will tend to dominate the competitive scene which makes those less fun for me (e.g. Rieekan). They also push Imp lists out of the tournament scenes so they become Reb love fests. I speak anecdotally as I haven’t seen the lists and I know there are folks like me who will only fly Imps soooo I’m just throwing my opinion out there. It’s a master-crafted list and Yor is a stand-up player who is highly skilled. I think it’ll be the next Rieekan.

Now that I’ve identified a problem, here’s my solution: nerf flotillas so they don’t count as a ship for victory conditions. It doesn’t really hurt this fleet in the right hands but the player takes a big risk being tabled if the doom pickle bites the dust. IMO it would be cinematic/realistic and you’d see many fewer flots solely used for activation padding … esp on the Reb side.

Peace Out Y’all!

Hmm so this is the closest i could come to an imperial equivalent.

Admiral Darth Vader

Isd2 Vader, Brunson, renenforced blast doors, leading shots, xi7, relentless

Gonzanti admiral Titus comms net

Gonzanti director isard, slicer tools, suppressor

Gonzanti jamming field

3x lambda shuttles

Dengar, marek stele, tie defender, ig88

Objectives advanced gunnery, fire lanes, and sensor net

391/400

Seams like most people agree that a flotilla not counting for tabling rule would be a nice add to the game right?

Most people I talk to feel this way.

Here is an idea, don't run lists that lean massively on flotilla activation padding. It is a widely hated part of our game, even among the people who play it. SO DONT. Fight with ships. Moderation is key in everything.

3 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

Seams like most people agree that a flotilla not counting for tabling rule would be a nice add to the game right?

Most people I talk to feel this way.

Here is an idea, don't run lists that lean massively on flotilla activation padding. It is a widely hated part of our game, even among the people who play it. SO DONT. Fight with ships. Moderation is key in everything.

Don't tell me how to live my life besides half the fun of this game is figuring out how to beat certain combos

I'm pretty sure the MC75 will be able to take down a doom pickle 1v1. Aspiration pushes the front hull to 6, so you drive directly at the MC80. ECM reduces damage. Now you have the choice of 2 Ordnance, so ER and APT/ACM, or 1 of each. APT, LS, XI7. And you can get 10 dice with a double arc.

What's so amazing is the Fish Farm has 1 source of damage, so ECM will always be used on that single attack, which means you just need to outlast the MC80. Based on my experience, the MC80 is crippled by double arc APT attacks, but those are coming from MC30s. The MC75 is just a large MC30, so you should be able to do it even faster.

Pick Fire Lanes every time because points are scored once per round, where as Sensor Net is on every activation. AG is just suicide since MC75s can double arc soooooo easily.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm pretty sure the MC75 will be able to take down a doom pickle 1v1. Aspiration pushes the front hull to 6, so you drive directly at the MC80. ECM reduces damage. Now you have the choice of 2 Ordnance, so ER and APT/ACM, or 1 of each. APT, LS, XI7. And you can get 10 dice with a double arc.

What's so amazing is the Fish Farm has 1 source of damage, so ECM will always be used on that single attack, which means you just need to outlast the MC80. Based on my experience, the MC80 is crippled by double arc APT attacks, but those are coming from MC30s. The MC75 is just a large MC30, so you should be able to do it even faster.

Pick Fire Lanes every time because points are scored once per round, where as Sensor Net is on every activation. AG is just suicide since MC75s can double arc soooooo easily.

Mc80 home one types crumple like tin foil if you can get past their shields. I have come close to killing one with nothing but a raider 1 Apts and rams

Yet again, Rebel list.

Just now, WGNF911 said:

Yet again, Rebel list.

Kuat refit and screed

You have to survive the approach

Just now, WGNF911 said:

You have to survive the approach

With good maneuvering the front arc of a home one is always open

3 minutes ago, WGNF911 said:

You have to survive the approach

The concept is literally the same as the MC75. All you have to do is get into close and the ship works by itself. The hardest thing will be getting into close and maintaining range since 6 activations can make for a slippery ship.

Left open Weapons and Offensive slots, and JJ let's you swing around quickly. Pair with Demo.

ISD Kuat Refit (112)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Intel Officer (7)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
= 160 Points

It's not so much any particular list that's the problem, or even any of the players, but certain aspects of the rules. Here are two obvious examples:

• Firing before movement makes a last/first activation very strong indeed. Cheap flotillas (especially for the rebels) allow players to all but guarantee last/first if they are first player.
• Sensor Net is not a balanced scenario. The number of victory points available from it is out of all proportion to those available from other objectives. Add to that the huge second player advantage, which is made even worse by strategic-heavy fleets, and you have a recipe for an unfair game.

Last/first is not at all easy to fix because it is embedded in the structure of the game. Sensor Net is easier to fix if the second player advantage is reduced and if there are less points available.

Playing well with better lists can only do so much. As long as these inequalities exist in the rules, players will design fleets to take advantage of them.

You always have the option of walking away from the table if you think you can't enjoy a particular battle.

Nobody is forced to play a game that isn't fun.

In the meanwhile, it looks like FFG pays attention to runaway list archetypes and does eventually take action if there is a serious issue.

26 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm pretty sure the MC75 will be able to take down a doom pickle 1v1. Aspiration pushes the front hull to 6, so you drive directly at the MC80. ECM reduces damage. Now you have the choice of 2 Ordnance, so ER and APT/ACM, or 1 of each. APT, LS, XI7. And you can get 10 dice with a double arc.

What's so amazing is the Fish Farm has 1 source of damage, so ECM will always be used on that single attack, which means you just need to outlast the MC80. Based on my experience, the MC80 is crippled by double arc APT attacks, but those are coming from MC30s. The MC75 is just a large MC30, so you should be able to do it even faster.

Pick Fire Lanes every time because points are scored once per round, where as Sensor Net is on every activation. AG is just suicide since MC75s can double arc soooooo easily.

This is exactly right. @MattShadowlord made the great suggestion of pairing ECM with Walex to give you up to 4 consecutive braces, perhaps only 2 if the MC80 is generating accuracies consistently. Playing in a game with Raddus last night against a dual ISD list, I dropped Aspiration in the front of a Cymoon, lining up for the double arc. (I am still trying out the right defensive build, so I’ll describe what would have happened if I had ECM/Walex.)

With Aspiration buffing my front shields to 6, he rolled 10 damage. Brace to 5, leaving one shield. He rams. My activation is Repair to put my front shields back to 4. My front arc does 6 damage plus APT, my side arc uses External Racks and does 9 damage plus APT. I ram him. At this point, I have 2 facedown and 4 shields on the most critical arc, and he has two facedown, two face up, and no shields. Next turn, he blasts me again for 10 (unlikely, because 10 is a really good roll but for scenario purposes...). I brace again losing all the shields and redirect to take no hull damage. He rams again. Aspiration does two more face up damage, meaning that I need only need 4 damage from two shots to kill a non-Motti ISD, 7 for a Motti ISD (one less for both if I ram).

The MC75 Ordnance Cruiser is built to get face to face with heavy hitting ships. Raddus will make it almost trivial to put it in front of an MC80 Defiance and blast it into space dust. Fire Lanes is the best choice because the 1+x won’t be able to score any points except by putting the tokens under your ships and squads with Strategic VCXs. Added bonus? This build will scare the crap out of any fleet that hits the table.

8 minutes ago, comatose said:

This is exactly right. @MattShadowlord made the great suggestion of pairing ECM with Walex to give you up to 4 consecutive braces, perhaps only 2 if the MC80 is generating accuracies consistently. Playing in a game with Raddus last night against a dual ISD list, I dropped Aspiration in the front of a Cymoon, lining up for the double arc. (I am still trying out the right defensive build, so I’ll describe what would have happened if I had ECM/Walex.)

With Aspiration buffing my front shields to 6, he rolled 10 damage. Brace to 5, leaving one shield. He rams. My activation is Repair to put my front shields back to 4. My front arc does 6 damage plus APT, my side arc uses External Racks and does 9 damage plus APT. I ram him. At this point, I have 2 facedown and 4 shields on the most critical arc, and he has two facedown, two face up, and no shields. Next turn, he blasts me again for 10 (unlikely, because 10 is a really good roll but for scenario purposes...). I brace again losing all the shields and redirect to take no hull damage. He rams again. Aspiration does two more face up damage, meaning that I need only need 4 damage from two shots to kill a non-Motti ISD, 7 for a Motti ISD (one less for both if I ram).

The MC75 Ordnance Cruiser is built to get face to face with heavy hitting ships. Raddus will make it almost trivial to put it in front of an MC80 Defiance and blast it into space dust. Fire Lanes is the best choice because the 1+x won’t be able to score any points except by putting the tokens under your ships and squads with Strategic VCXs. Added bonus? This build will scare the crap out of any fleet that hits the table.

I assume Ordnance 75? But that seems like a real solid combo. My one issue is that I really enjoy Bail Organa, and he worked great last night. Obviously not with Raddus, though.

18 minutes ago, Democratus said:

You always have the option of walking away from the table if you think you can't enjoy a particular battle.

Nobody is forced to play a game that isn't fun.

In the meanwhile, it looks like FFG pays attention to runaway list archetypes and does eventually take action if there is a serious issue.

Walking away from a table at a regional you drove 4-6 hour+ to compete in isn't really how I like to spend MY Saturdays.

The list is beatable. ANY list is beatable folks. And it has been mentioned Ad nauseam that wave 7 will open more doors to competition, on both factions. Let's all just sit back and realize that we push plastic ships around for fun, and the DICE are the real enemy here.....little ivory ingots of evil....

21 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I assume Ordnance 75? But that seems like a real solid combo. My one issue is that I really enjoy Bail Organa, and he worked great last night. Obviously not with Raddus, though.

Yeah, MC75 Ordnance to get APT and ER. The MC75 is a hard hitting ship, and I think you'll have to spam navigation if you want to set up double arcs consistently. Raddus gives you the advantage of setting up the perfect double arc, going whatever speed you want. With careful orientation, you can set up your double arc while only giving your opponent a single arc to target to be sure you get the most value from Aspiration. It's almost like the Rebels have their own version of Demolisher but with 9 hull.