Kind of strange to hate on a list that has deployments, activations, can go first or second, has firepower and durability, has strategic play, and some reply to squadrons.

Isn't that what lists should strive towards.

Also, it can be beaten. You just have to...git gud

Great article.

Sad that it like a very large group of other lists still has its primary weakness in squadrons. And this one too is a light screen, with increased value as strategic, so your opponent really does have to consider going for the squads first. How easy to use was Jamming Field? This + Jan Ors seems to be your only true anti-squad tech.

Would you consider dropping any upgrades off the Fish, or nah?

Honestly, this is a type of list that actually should make Armada more interesting. An non-combat win condition, another use for squadrons other than pure damage (even though this forces more squadron use, I think its a great thing).

12 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Kind of strange to hate on a list that has deployments, activations, can go first or second, has firepower and durability, has strategic play, and some reply to squadrons.

Isn't that what lists should strive towards.

Also, it can be beaten. You just have to...git gud

And if you're going to a tournament, expect to see it and have a plan for how you'll deal with it. I think the fleet least capable of dealing with it is one with only speed 2 ships (not counting flotillas). Everything else should have a good chance in multiple ways.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

Great article.

Sad that it like a very large group of other lists still has its primary weakness in squadrons. And this one too is a light screen, with increased value as strategic, so your opponent really does have to consider going for the squads first. How easy to use was Jamming Field? This + Jan Ors seems to be your only true anti-squad tech.

Would you consider dropping any upgrades off the Fish, or nah?

Honestly, this is a type of list that actually should make Armada more interesting. An non-combat win condition, another use for squadrons other than pure damage (even though this forces more squadron use, I think its a great thing).

And it is thematically perfect for the Rebels! The mission is what is important, not outfighting the Imperial fleet.

1 minute ago, cynanbloodbane said:

And it is thematically perfect for the Rebels! The mission is what is important, not outfighting the Imperial fleet.

It also kinda looks like a skirmish fleet... Capital ships? Man we only got like one.

I like it.

1 hour ago, AdmiralYor said:

You show me any major game system where players as a majority take the "high road". That is a completely unreasonable expectation. Problems get fixed because they are a problem, otherwise they are only theorycrafting. Rieekan didn't get nerfed because it was complained about of the forums by players that played against 2+3/4 in San Antonio or Toronto. He was nerfed because he had a large portion of the top standings at large tournaments consistently in more than one archetype. After dealing with Rieekan 2+3 for a while, I eventually gave up and built a counter list centered around him for worlds. I played it, he got nerfed, and you know what? I didn't feel badsies at all, I moved on and built other fleets.

Hey as a San Antonio player I saw the Rieekan nerf coming. I just didn't expect so many players using him.

1 hour ago, duck_bird said:

I know I've used this analogy to death but it's a lot like a corner-camping dwarf army in WHFB that doesn't intend on moving the entire game.

I used to play dwarfs in WFB. My infantry often ended up in enemy deployment zone.

The high road is not just for your basement, what you run when the easily e-bayable promo cards are on the line says way more about you than if you "hold back," against your buddy you play every week. Either a list is, or is not, abusive of the rule set and either does, or does not encourage a fair and engaging game for both players. The circumstances just add pressure to the situation and how someone reacts under pressure is the true indicator of where their convictions lie. Venue does not change a list.

If you would not run this against your local buddy, you have no right to run it against someone you don't know. Just because you don't have to see them again does not excuse you from offering them a fun, fair, game, when they agree to spend their limited free time and resources to play a game with you for 2-3 hours.

Don't praise lists like this, they only encourage more abuse of the rule set. We can be better, and make the game better for it.

46 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Ppl used to **** points off fire lanes since w1.

Sensor net is post strategic.

Actually, they came out the same time which I see now.

I will shut up since my opinion is in stark contrast of most. I have not been successful against this type of list and I don't see how to combat someone who plays to stay away from the battle by placing their ships sideways except for their big cannon and then shuffle the tokens along the board to their advantage. I get missions are an integral part of the game, I just dont see the balance in this one. Just my perspective from a terrible player though.

1 minute ago, ripper998 said:

Actually, they came out the same time which I see now.

I will shut up since my opinion is in stark contrast of most. I have not been successful against this type of list and I don't see how to combat someone who plays to stay away from the battle by placing their ships sideways except for their big cannon and then shuffle the tokens along the board to their advantage. I get missions are an integral part of the game, I just dont see the balance in this one. Just my perspective from a terrible player though.

@ripper998, I think most people would definitely agree that this is an insanely strong list. I'll back that up with data, anecdotal as it is, my own experiences and from the report in question, those 9-2, 8-3s are extremely strong wins.

I recommend you do as most do: Try bombing it to death. (Imperial Maarek Jendon, or Rieekan aces). Avoid getting caught up with his delaying tactics and jamming field.

As for it being unfunny and unfair... well. I can understand, even if I don't fully agree. These builds live and die on a hair-line: each game he reports the Fish was like 2 to 3 hull.

33 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Honestly, this is a typthat actually should make Armada more interesting. An non-combat win condition, another use for squadrons other than pure damage (even though this forces more squadron use, I think its a great thing).

I would embrace this list wholeheartedly if it wasn’t for the fact that activation advantage and activation delay is the lowest skill method of playing that embraces a rules gap over actually learning to play the game well. It creates bad experiences for those in the receiving end and constricts list options. If you don’t believe me, show me the tournament anywhere where a 2 ship lists did well. Heck, even a three ship list.

I have gone to multiple regionals and watched players punch above their skill set time and time again because they know can netlist and last-first. It’s is even more pointed when they do it with AvengerBT or Demolisher or both now. Fish Farm is just the latest rendition.

Let me be clear: I do not fault anyone for taking this list to a tourney. I do not mean that those who won with it do not possess skill or didn’t earn their first places. I expect good players to embrace rules extremes to win in tournaments. I fault the game rules for allowing this to be a thing.

A secondary consideration is that the lists like these are the most god-awful boring fleets to play. Watching somebody move three flotillas at speed 1 and then watching them activate two more at speed 2 is like watching flies mating. At least with the flies, something productive just happened.

I wish good gaming fortune on every player who player who takes this list to a tourney. Please abuse the heck out of it and keep pissing off your opponents and everyone there so FFG will do something about it.

17 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

The high road is not just for your basement, what you run when the easily e-bayable promo cards are on the line says way more about you than if you "hold back," against your buddy you play every week. Either a list is, or is not, abusive of the rule set and either does, or does not encourage a fair and engaging game for both players. The circumstances just add pressure to the situation and how someone reacts under pressure is the true indicator of where their convictions lie. Venue does not change a list.

If you would not run this against your local buddy, you have no right to run it against someone you don't know. Just because you don't have to see them again does not excuse you from offering them a fun, fair, game, when they agree to spend their limited free time and resources to play a game with you for 2-3 hours.

Don't praise lists like this, they only encourage more abuse of the rule set. We can be better, and make the game better for it.

This is an amazing list.

Your "high road" is actually inviting disgust for people who are running legal lists. I think that is unhealthy for the game.

I have fun playing Armada no matter what. It amazes me that others cannot.

8 minutes ago, Church14 said:

*snip

haha, I do agree with you. =) Trust me, activation padding is weird.

(I think there are some 4 ship Regional winners. Dunno about 3. Went over this with data in another thread)

28 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

The high road is not just for your basement, what you run when the easily e-bayable promo cards are on the line says way more about you than if you "hold back," against your buddy you play every week.

That's why I never hold back. Always bring the tournament winning fleet and crush all the opposition. Soon, no one will be in the area to play which means I always get my promo cards.

Also, I hunt down promos. Spent probably $400 so far on them and I'm extremely competitive when a new kit comes out with new cards. Nothing stops me from my alt arts.

36 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

Actually, they came out the same time which I see now.

I will shut up since my opinion is in stark contrast of most. I have not been successful against this type of list and I don't see how to combat someone who plays to stay away from the battle by placing their ships sideways except for their big cannon and then shuffle the tokens along the board to their advantage. I get missions are an integral part of the game, I just dont see the balance in this one. Just my perspective from a terrible player though.

You're not entirely wrong. I was just pointing out that high-score objectives have been with us since day 1.

If you are only concerned about winning and will stretch the games rules to any length in order to win, do we also condone taking second palyer and running away to win 6-5 on the final table because you have a huge lead going in?

Do we just throw up our hands and say, "well them's the rules, sorry other person who wants to not waste 2 hours of their time, I win,"

There have to be some internal codes that we adhere to or there is no limit to the dumb crap we can excuse in the name of "following the letter of the rules." no matter how shallow and easy mode they become, or how damaging they can be to the community at large, specially to middle of the road people who like the game but are unsure about tournament play. Lists like this are a slamming door that make them want to avoid engaging in the competitive side of the hobby.

The simple answer (I can't see the thread due to work firewalls) is to pick the red objective, likely Most Wanted. Remember, in a tourney, they might need to score more than 6 to win it all.

It sucks that a 6-5 will probably knock both of you out, but it is what it is.

Just now, IceQube MkII said:

The simple answer (I can't see the thread due to work firewalls) is to pick the red objective, likely Most Wanted. Remember, in a tourney, they might need to score more than 6 to win it all.

It sucks that a 6-5 will probably knock both of you out, but it is what it is.

It's AG on a doom pickle. FL and Sensor Net with 3 VCX. No good choices.

1 minute ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

If you are only concerned about winning and will stretch the games rules to any length in order to win, do we also condone taking second palyer and running away to win 6-5 on the final table because you have a huge lead going in?

Do we just throw up our hands and say, "well them's the rules, sorry other person who wants to not waste 2 hours of their time, I win,"

There have to be some internal codes that we adhere to or there is no limit to the dumb crap we can excuse in the name of "following the letter of the rules." no matter how shallow and easy mode they become, or how damaging they can be to the community at large, specially to middle of the road people who like the game but are unsure about tournament play. Lists like this are a slamming door that make them want to avoid engaging in the competitive side of the hobby.

The only way for the rules to change is to abuse the system. You literally have to break everything, exploit the loopholes, and piss the designers off to change the rules for the benefit of the game.

Pretending the issue isn't there doesn't fix anything and it intentionally biases the game so it appears the game is healthy. Sure, after you win a few times you might want to take the high road and try something wonky, but nothing has been fixed.

I fully support people who are willing to push the boundaries of card interactions and rule exploits since it draws attention from everyone.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

It's AG on a doom pickle. FL and Sensor Net with 3 VCX. No good choices.

AG may force engagement. That's what I would pick hands down.

There are tactics to try and stop it, but many fleets do not have tech to do such things effectively. To me the point is not so much if the list is "unbeatable," which it is not. The point is that you are taking someone's expectation of a combat game between fleets and denying them that, choosing instead to "win," by driving away. No one drives to a store and sets aside time out of their Saturday looking forward to that kind of a farse of a game and comes away from it satisfied with the use of their time.

We don't want our hobby to turn into that or no one will want to join us and play...

34 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

This is an amazing list.

Your "high road" is actually inviting disgust for people who are running legal lists. I think that is unhealthy for the game.

I have fun playing Armada no matter what. It amazes me that others cannot.

With all my heart, I love you!

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

The only way for the rules to change is to abuse the system. You literally have to break everything, exploit the loopholes, and piss the designers off to change the rules for the benefit of the game.

Pretending the issue isn't there doesn't fix anything and it intentionally biases the game so it appears the game is healthy. Sure, after you win a few times you might want to take the high road and try something wonky, but nothing has been fixed.

I fully support people who are willing to push the boundaries of card interactions and rule exploits since it draws attention from everyone.

So who cares about the people whose time you waste in the mean time right? They don't matter anyway. It is totally on the game designers that they are having a bad time, it does not matter that they like all the rest of their games, BUT the one against an abusive list.

2 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

If you are only concerned about winning and will stretch the games rules to any length in order to win, do we also condone taking second palyer and running away to win 6-5 on the final table because you have a huge lead going in?

Do we just throw up our hands and say, "well them's the rules, sorry other person who wants to not waste 2 hours of their time, I win,"

There have to be some internal codes that we adhere to or there is no limit to the dumb crap we can excuse in the name of "following the letter of the rules." no matter how shallow and easy mode they become, or how damaging they can be to the community at large, specially to middle of the road people who like the game but are unsure about tournament play. Lists like this are a slamming door that make them want to avoid engaging in the competitive side of the hobby.

7

No game community will survive long where the only tactic to counter strong play is peer pressure. The idea that people should bring sub-optimal lists to a tournament is not productive and only serves to further increase bad blood. And yes, if you don't think a 1+x fleet is fun to play against and should be discouraged from being played, take 1st player and spend the game running away. The 1+x fleet won't be able to get enough points to increase their win to a 7-4.

The only thing that will bring 1+x more in balance is a rules change from FFG. Anything else will just cause conflict within the community. That's why I would expect a rule change in early April, after Regionals and before Worlds. I would also wager that the change will be that a player's fleet is destroyed when all of its non-flotilla ships are destroyed.

3 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

So who cares about the people whose time you waste in the mean time right? They don't matter anyway. It is totally on the game designers that they are having a bad time, it does not matter that they like all the rest of their games, BUT the one against an abusive list.

In a tournament? Nah, I'm playing to win unless I've already won the alt arts.

Casual? That's the best practice you can get to learn how to beat the list.

I live in an aggressive meta. You adapt or die.