https://intelsweep.wordpress.com/2018/02/01/shamelessly-buying-the-fish-farm-sydney-regionals-aar/

Took the terrible, monstrous, devious, Fish Farm to a Regional event in Sydney over the weekend.

Here's my thoughts.

The only thing I'll say is that the Indianapolis one had a bid of IIRC 16 for second. Most lists don't have that large of a bid.

Congrats!

Also I totally agree with this:

"Despite this, it was actually an incredibly close game and a reminder of why I love Armada."

"The list does however have some pretty clear weaknesses. Firstly, it hates squads."

Congrats on the win and thanks for the write up!

Great write-up! It's a good archetype, that's fun to play, challenging to play against, but as you mention not unbeatable. I'm glad it's part of the armada landscape.

4 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Great write-up! It's a good archetype, that's fun to play, challenging to play against, but as you mention not unbeatable. I'm glad it's part of the armada landscape.

It is really gamey though.

3 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

It is really gamey though.

Can you elaborate please?

Grats! I'm glad someone else gets to join me in the garbage compactor.

Random points of strategy

• The repair crew flotillas were not actually meant to repair the MC80. While they can in some circumstances, they are actually meant to repair flotillas used to block ships in place or prevent close range approaches.
• AP vs ECM, H9 vs XI7, and Lando vs IO are all hard choices. I could probably write an essay on the topic of when one is better depending on meta.

For counter play, picking FL or SN and bum rushing across are probably the best options. The MC80 without AG has a very limited number of shots, a good block and some decent rolls have always been the downfall of the poor pickles. Unfortunately, even then it's unlikely to trade its life cheaply.

It is gamey because it plays on all the largest issues with the rule set.

1. Shameless activation padding so you don't have to make hard decisions

2. Trying to win the game without actually fighting anyone

3. Turning a fleet combat game into a single ship game based on how powerful First/last is

A pass mechanic (as I have said about 1000000 times) would alleviate much of the issue with this fleet that give people who play it the feel badsies.

Fleets like this have driven players in our local group out of the game, glad to see people are taking the high road and avoiding it...

I am sure the people who play against it appreciate the lack of tactical depth and the waste of their valuable leisure time this fleet inflicts on opponents.

5 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

It is gamey because it plays on all the largest issues with the rule set.

1. Shameless activation padding so you don't have to make hard decisions

2. Trying to win the game without actually fighting anyone

3. Turning a fleet combat game into a single ship game based on how powerful First/last is

A pass mechanic (as I have said about 1000000 times) would alleviate much of the issue with this fleet that give people who play it the feel badsies.

Fleets like this have driven players in our local group out of the game, glad to see people are taking the high road and avoiding it...

I am sure the people who play against it appreciate the lack of tactical depth and the waste of their valuable leisure time this fleet inflicts on opponents.

The article, and my game vs. @Dupylast night, totally disagree with your sentiment. Not trying to provoke, just putting another side out there.

I agree with the idea that there are lots of lists that CAN deal with this build. I think we all recognize that it would have issues against a bomber wing style list, specially a relay bomber list that can take second player and inflict damage from far away without giving the MC80 a viable target, however, against many lists, the heavy reliance on turning the mission into a massive landslide that far outweighs the combat element is hard to take. Also, the intentional activation padding with the cheapest ships possible simply to allow the First/Last move which we all know is a subject of much annoyance in the community is pretty blatant.

The player may be a "nice guy," but the list is geared specifically to stretch the known and irritating limitations of the rule set to their maximum. The list you field says far more about a player than their attitude at the table. Don't waste another person's valuable leisure time with a game that is by design, easier for the player padding their activation to absurd levels and spamming Strategic to allow them to win without actually fighting anything.

The list, as shown by the ability to pick it up and do very well with little practice, removes much of the tactical depth from the game, we should not praise success when it comes in a form such as this.

When the counter is a classic bomber swarm (3 VSDs, or 2 VSDs & a Quasar + loads of bombers/squads), how can it be broken? The counter is most basic archetype in the game.

4 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

Fleets like this have driven players in our local group out of the game, glad to see people are taking the high road and avoiding it...

You show me any major game system where players as a majority take the "high road". That is a completely unreasonable expectation. Problems get fixed because they are a problem, otherwise they are only theorycrafting. Rieekan didn't get nerfed because it was complained about of the forums by players that played against 2+3/4 in San Antonio or Toronto. He was nerfed because he had a large portion of the top standings at large tournaments consistently in more than one archetype. After dealing with Rieekan 2+3 for a while, I eventually gave up and built a counter list centered around him for worlds. I played it, he got nerfed, and you know what? I didn't feel badsies at all, I moved on and built other fleets.

4 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

The list, as shown by the ability to pick it up and do very well with little practice, removes much of the tactical depth from the game, we should not praise success when it comes in a form such as this.

That is kind of mean man, unless you happen to know how much practice, theorycrafting, and tuning went into a list over its evolution. Stealing lists and strategies is a time honored tradition in gaming, since it gives those with less spare time a catch up on players with more.

41 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

I agree with the idea that there are lots of lists that CAN deal with this build. I think we all recognize that it would have issues against a bomber wing style list, specially a relay bomber list that can take second player and inflict damage from far away without giving the MC80 a viable target, however, against many lists, the heavy reliance on turning the mission into a massive landslide that far outweighs the combat element is hard to take. Also, the intentional activation padding with the cheapest ships possible simply to allow the First/Last move which we all know is a subject of much annoyance in the community is pretty blatant.

I agree with this bit. The list isn't unbeatable. It can feel pretty frustrating to play against though. Especially the strategic bit. 90 points of squads that have no intention of engaging enemy squads or attacking enemy ships at all if given the option not to. They exist purely to farm points. Ditto the flotillas. They are there to farm points and delay the big ship's activation. The big ship is a deterrent. "Come stop me from earning 45 points a turn," is very annoying. I know I've used this analogy to death but it's a lot like a corner-camping dwarf army in WHFB that doesn't intend on moving the entire game. It's beatable if you have the tools. But man the game isn't very interesting.

However, Luke is the fellow from Master of the Fleet, right? He clearly knows what he's doing so I don't think it's fair to say "lul anyone could pick this fleet up and win."

40 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

When the counter is a classic bomber swarm (3 VSDs, or 2 VSDs & a Quasar + loads of bombers/squads), how can it be broken? The counter is most basic archetype in the game.

Err... I don't wanna be rude, but have you played against this archetype? Until seeing it in person I really had no idea how exploitable the farming objectives were. (I think Fire Lanes especially was written before Strategic was a thing?) Those vics will spend all game lumbering across the board while the farm fleet collects points. By the end of turn 1 the 3 fire lanes tokens are between the pickle and the long board edge, and sensor net can be hilariously farmed at speed 1 or 0 as far from the enemy fleet as possible.

Now again, no one plays this stuff in casual games. But I've only been playing for like 4 months now and at local tourneys I've already seen enough of this type of stuff to dislike it a bunch.

52 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

however, against many lists, the heavy reliance on turning the mission into a massive landslide that far outweighs the combat element is hard to take.

If there are many lists that we all know can deal with it...

... and against many others, it's hard to take...

... doesn't that put the onus on the opponent for failing to account for a strong archetype?

My MC30's are strong against Fish Farm.

Star destroyers with XI7/GT are strong against me.

Fish Farm is strong against (most) star destroyers.

Matchups matter. If you're very frustrated by this, bring something that will beat it to drive it out of the meta. If you're frustrated by its existence in general, that's a bigger problem that has more to do with being angry at people for doing something you don't like than with the health of the game.

Strategic is starting to get abused bad with people vying for second. That list may not be unbeatable but a very small subset of lists can beat it however they struggle against anything else. Why would someone take a direct counter to this if they are going to get trashed by alot of other folks? Why WOULDNT someone take a list like this is there is a very small chance your going to face a bomber list?

1 hour ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

3. Turning a fleet combat game into a single ship game based on how powerful First/last is

First/last is a lot easier to "solve" then requiring a pass mechanic. Just put a number token on each ship at the start of the game - your ships always have to activate in that order, then, every turn. No first/last, then, unless it's the only ship you have left...

Just now, xanderf said:

First/last is a lot easier to "solve" then requiring a pass mechanic. Just put a number token on each ship at the start of the game - your ships always have to activate in that order, then, every turn. No first/last, then, unless it's the only ship you have left...

No thanks. I like the ability to choose activation, no matter how many ships I have, 2 or 8.

3 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

Strategic is starting to get abused bad with people vying for second. That list may not be unbeatable but a very small subset of lists can beat it however they struggle against anything else. Why would someone take a direct counter to this if they are going to get trashed by alot of other folks? Why WOULDNT someone take a list like this is there is a very small chance your going to face a bomber list?

Same argument can be made for any dominant list type... That's called Ballance. Not every list type is good against everything. The dominant lists are going to be the ones that they are the best against most, that's why they are dominant.

Wow

Amazing achivement. My Raider list will have hard times with those list. Chosing First is almost deathtrap for me. Boeing second is also and choice. Very good build but with some weekness (squadrons)

1 minute ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Same argument can be made for any dominant list type... That's called Ballance. Not every list type is good against everything. The dominant lists are going to be the ones that they are the best against most, that's why they are dominant.

True but you have to admit though that some of these objectives were written before the era of strategic which can be really damaging as was shown in the article. 285 points just off one mission is obscene.

1 minute ago, ripper998 said:

True but you have to admit though that some of these objectives were written before the era of strategic which can be really damaging as was shown in the article. 285 points just off one mission is obscene.

Why wouldn't a heavy squadron list be able to kill the VCX's and end the strategic moving of tokens?

Obscene, yes. Not possible if you alpha strike the strategic squadrons with an anti-squadron ball.

Ninjad.

During the days of the Clonisher, people were bidding crazy to go FIRST. I think bidding for SECOND is also a valid strategy (I mean, there have been numerous discussions that going 2nd wasn't worth it because objective points did not provide enough of an advantage).

I've never been one to talk about how one should enjoy the game or what they should do with their leisure time but, given the nature of the event, it is a reality that there will be a part of the population that will try to win it all - hopefully within the rules.

So, you should assume:

1 - Infinite resources to spam upgrade cards or models as needed. Whether they buy it or have friends who will let them borrow.

2 - Part of the puzzle in a game like this is... a) finding max point efficiency b) optimizing rules

That being said, these are things associated with a Regional. You can fun drinking beer and playing at your house with your friends which is totally OK as well.

10 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

True but you have to admit though that some of these objectives were written before the era of strategic which can be really damaging as was shown in the article. 285 points just off one mission is obscene.

Ppl used to **** points off fire lanes since w1.

Sensor net is post strategic.