People writing hints on their hands to remember to remember to use their abilities each turn is WAAC? Reminders to use your list appropriately seems like you are playing the game as intended.

Making reminders to use tokens or markers to remember to do something illegal in order for your opponent to have missed opportunities does come off as WAAC. You are saying you’d be more ok winning because someone forgot to do something than allowing them to have a reminder to play the list as intended.

26 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Firstly, it's a HUGE stretch of the English language to say it's in any way against the rules, RAW or RAI. Secondly, having a problem with it is VERY retentive.

THAT'S why it's being derided

Personally, I don't get enough games in to remember everything all the time. I think I'll start putting reminders on the back of my hand, to help me out and to get an edge over those who don't like it

Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.

That is the relevant text from the rules. I fail to see how you think it’s a huge stretch to consider notes written on your hand for the specific and express purpose of assisting yourself not to forget certain triggers is not "outside Information"

Additionally those of us that are making the point dislike the rule as much as the rest of the people against it, AGAIN WE DON’T LIKE THE RULE, but just because you don’t like a rule doesn’t mean you get to ignore it.

Lastly, justifying derision (or any derogatory statements) towards another player/forum goer because you disagree with their point of view is not very nice, were all here to have a civil discussion and insulting comments are not helpful.

1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.

That is the relevant text from the rules. I fail to see how you think it’s a huge stretch to consider notes written on your hand for the specific and express purpose of assisting yourself not to forget certain triggers is not "outside Information"

Additionally those of us that are making the point dislike the rule as much as the rest of the people against it, AGAIN WE DON’T LIKE THE RULE, but just because you don’t like a rule doesn’t mean you get to ignore it.

Lastly, justifying derision (or any derogatory statements) towards another player/forum goer because you disagree with their point of view is not very nice, were all here to have a civil discussion and insulting comments are not helpful.

I don’t read that rule the same way you do at all. It says taking notes. The player isn’t not taking notes, he is referencing a note on his hand that’s already there. The player is not referencing outside material as note is there as a trigger for the card that he is using on the table, or the rule book also on the table.

If you don’t like the rule, why are you trying so hard to justify that it applies to this situation when it easily can meet both RAW and RAI.

1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.

That is the relevant text from the rules. I fail to see how you think it’s a huge stretch to consider notes written on your hand for the specific and express purpose of assisting yourself not to forget certain triggers is not "outside Information"

Additionally those of us that are making the point dislike the rule as much as the rest of the people against it, AGAIN WE DON’T LIKE THE RULE, but just because you don’t like a rule doesn’t mean you get to ignore it.

Lastly, justifying derision (or any derogatory statements) towards another player/forum goer because you disagree with their point of view is not very nice, were all here to have a civil discussion and insulting comments are not helpful.

But you aren't 'taking notes', it's already written on your hand. You are assuming 'taking notes' is 'bringing notes'. The rule you have quoted CLEARLY is saying to not take (make) notes during a game, or reference (look up) outside material or information during a game. That part is just plain English. The assumption that can be made from that is the rule is to stop timewasting. Having a note on your hand is NOT 'taking notes'. That's just English.

RoV

Ninja'd by Dpro. That's what I get for finishing a comment later on

Isnt it slower if you make a maneuver and then keep on looking at your list to remember triggers?

@Mace Windu @AllWingsStandyingBy

What about writing hit probabilities and dimensions after certain templates onto your hands? Do you think that‘s the same or different compared to a card name in your list wrt „outside information“?

Seconding RoV. It clearly states DURING a round. RAW you cannot scribble rey on your hand/arm while the match is ongoing, but after you are free to write whatever on your arm all you want until the next round.

1 hour ago, spacelion said:

Isnt it slower if you make a maneuver and then keep on looking at your list to remember triggers?

Depends how long it takes you to read 'KANAN LESS RED DICE' as you do your stuff. that's the one I keep forgetting

At no point did I say its about taking notes, read my post again, its about referencing outside material.

Whats the cut off point? 1 or 2 words written on your thumb is fine? What about a short sentence written on your hand? Maybe a quick paragraph on a scrap of paper? Or perhaps a detailed strategy as well as all you triggers you dont want to forget on A4 piece of paper that you keep on the game board next to your ships and is visible at all times to remind you of what you need to do.

If you allow reference material to be brought into the game, even if its just 1 word written on your thumb, where do you draw the line as to whats actually not OK?

14 hours ago, JJ48 said:

So it's ok to have the maneuver charts for your ships?

Perfectly legal. You can have maneuver charts for ALL the ships.

14 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is a red herring. You can snub your nose at any one who would deny missed opportunities to their opponents, but the reality is that it's a common expectation (if not at this point, default expectation) in competitive X-Wing that missing a trigger will likely result in your opponent denying it. It's certainly within their rights and within the rules to do so, and arguing about personal morality is pointless on this regard, as its a game.

That being said, the rules explicitly forbid external game aides, and notes on one's hand aren't any less external than notes on cards or paper. So, regardless of the "personal morality" of denying missed triggers, the rules say NO pretty clearly on this one.

Curious, where are you getting this "explicitly forbid external game aides" rule from? As a judge myself, I'd like to see this source myself since I'm ignorant of it.

You are allowed to have external notes as long as it's open information. We're not discussing probability calculations or any matter of derived information here. This has gotten just plain silly. What if I just tape the upgrade card to my arm? I've seen Whisper players hang onto the 2 template as a reminder to decloak; is that an "external game aide" violation?

I need to reiterate: judges at Worlds assured me that I was permitted to marker reminders on my wrist. BISS > RAW > RAI.

34 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

At no point did I say its about taking notes, read my post again, its about referencing outside material.

Whats the cut off point? 1 or 2 words written on your thumb is fine? What about a short sentence written on your hand? Maybe a quick paragraph on a scrap of paper? Or perhaps a detailed strategy as well as all you triggers you dont want to forget on A4 piece of paper that you keep on the game board next to your ships and is visible at all times to remind you of what you need to do.

If you allow reference material to be brought into the game, even if its just 1 word written on your thumb, where do you draw the line as to whats actually not OK?

Sigh. It's not 'outside material'. It's your hand. It's not 'referencing'. It's merely a visual reminder.

Come on...

45 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

At no point did I say its about taking notes, read my post again, its about referencing outside material.

Whats the cut off point? 1 or 2 words written on your thumb is fine? What about a short sentence written on your hand? Maybe a quick paragraph on a scrap of paper? Or perhaps a detailed strategy as well as all you triggers you dont want to forget on A4 piece of paper that you keep on the game board next to your ships and is visible at all times to remind you of what you need to do.

If you allow reference material to be brought into the game, even if its just 1 word written on your thumb, where do you draw the line as to whats actually not OK?

Well I think as long as you are referencing stuff that is PROVIDED by FFG, it is by definition NOT out-side material.
As someone mentioned, outside material could be statistical probabilities of hit/evade, which the game or FFG does not provide in any way.

So if you wanted to draw the entire attack-flowchart on your chest, then that would be okay. The length of the writing does not matter, it is the source that matters.

37 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Sigh. It's not 'outside material'. It's your hand. It's not 'referencing'. It's merely a visual reminder.

Come on...

Sigh, its not your hand, its whats written on it, and its semantics whether something is a reference or a reminder they are basically the same thing.

Also you havent actually answered the question, how many written words in reference notes written on you hand/arm/chest/paper are too many?

To put it another way, what would you consider to be "Outside Material" if reference notes do not count?

15 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This is a red herring. You can snub your nose at any one who would deny missed opportunities to their opponents, but the reality is that it's a common expectation (if not at this point, default expectation) in competitive X-Wing that missing a trigger will likely result in your opponent denying it. It's certainly within their rights and within the rules to do so, and arguing about personal morality is pointless on this regard, as its a game.

That being said, the rules explicitly forbid external game aides, and notes on one's hand aren't any less external than notes on cards or paper. So, regardless of the "personal morality" of denying missed triggers, the rules say NO pretty clearly on this one.

As always you ignore everything said already in the topic, you ignore the rules as well and give us your best impression of being you.

I can bring whatever references to the official game materials as I like. I can not bring external material which does not reference official x-wing products. So I can write the whole **** FAQ on my hand if I please. Or just the timing chart. Or just the name of a card. Or bring a complete printout of all maneuver dials in the game.

All fair game, all within the rules. Besides: I pity you, I have been given plenty of times the opportunity to correct a missed opportunity and I have given my opponents as well plenty of times the chance to do their stuff after they missed the correct timing. Why wouldn't I? Fairplay makes a regional much more entertaining.

58 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

Sigh, its not your hand, its whats written on it, and its semantics whether something is a reference or a reminder they are basically the same thing.

Also you havent actually answered the question, how many written words in reference notes written on you hand/arm/chest/paper are too many?

To put it another way, what would you consider to be "Outside Material" if reference notes do not count?

Dude, it's English. I teach it, and it's not me having trouble with it. It's not worth my time arguing about it. Not trying to be rude mate, but it's not me playing semantics.

1 hour ago, Mace Windu said:

To put it another way, what would you consider to be "Outside Material" if reference notes do not count?

You might want to read and understand posts by other users to help you answer this question. If you are actually interested in improving your knowledge and understanding that is of course

"Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.
However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain
hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official
rule documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our
website, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

What are we even arguing about?

Plus, 3rd time: FFG officials at Worlds gave me the green light to scribble all over myself, as well as MAKE NOTES BEFORE the round starts.

21 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You might want to read and understand posts by other users to help you answer this question. If you are actually interested in improving your knowledge and understanding that is of course

I think I can give him an easy reference to understand the difference.

Bringing a reference sheet for the timing chart or maneuvers of all ships: Fine.
Writing down the rule of 11 on your hand: Not fine.

Writing Rey on your hand is a reference to the cards itself and thus fine. Writing down your strategy for the initial approach for different lists, like doing a 5 forward against gunboats, but a two instead against other lists is not fine. Which means unfortunately you are not free to bring an AI script with you either ;-)

I'm settling on a framed picture of Daisy Ridley for regionals.

RAW - NO, not legal.

I guess there are many here who have never taken a test in school, college, or a certificate exam. If you came in with notes on your hand you would automatically fail. It is considered external to the test and the way FFG wrote that line, it is the same.

Community does not give a frack. So I guess the RAI win.

Personally, I think notes is not a bad thing and I would like to keep track of the points of my opponents ships. I was never one to remember numbers in my head so having the opponents point totals written down would be nice.

BTW...why are looking at your hand so much? Just look at your cards. Or a token. Geez.

3 minutes ago, rilesman said:

RAW - NO, not legal.

Read the thread again, you‘ll get a second try to answer.

16 minutes ago, rilesman said:

RAW - NO, not legal.

I guess there are many here who have never taken a test in school, college, or a certificate exam. If you came in with notes on your hand you would automatically fail. It is considered external to the test and the way FFG wrote that line, it is the same.

Community does not give a frack. So I guess the RAI win.

Personally, I think notes is not a bad thing and I would like to keep track of the points of my opponents ships. I was never one to remember numbers in my head so having the opponents point totals written down would be nice.

BTW...why are looking at your hand so much? Just look at your cards. Or a token. Geez.

I’ve taken tests and played x-wing. Who knew they are not the same.

Anyway, x-wing rules explicitly say you are not allowed to take notes during the game. So not RAW violation. You also have full access to all FFG rules books and cards. There are tons of tokens to remind of in game affects. A note on a hand to remind you to do stuff nothing is not a violation of RAW. Others have written this many different ways and yet we see the same response from the people in disagreement. That they “don’t like the rule, but it is a rule.” I don’t believe this because

1. Others have disproven multiple times it is not a violation of RAW

2. If you don’t like the rule, why are you fighting for it so hard when others have pointed out hard counter arguments.

16 minutes ago, rilesman said:

RAW - NO, not legal.

I guess there are many here who have never taken a test in school, college, or a certificate exam. If you came in with notes on your hand you would automatically fail. It is considered external to the test and the way FFG wrote that line, it is the same.

Community does not give a frack. So I guess the RAI win.

Personally, I think notes is not a bad thing and I would like to keep track of the points of my opponents ships. I was never one to remember numbers in my head so having the opponents point totals written down would be nice.

BTW...why are looking at your hand so much? Just look at your cards. Or a token. Geez.

I’ve taken tests and played x-wing. Who knew they are not the same.

Anyway, x-wing rules explicitly say you are not allowed to take notes during the game. So not RAW violation. You also have full access to all FFG rules books and cards. There are tons of tokens to remind of in game affects. A note on a hand to remind you to do stuff nothing is not a violation of RAW. Others have written this many different ways and yet we see the same response from the people in disagreement. That they “don’t like the rule, but it is a rule.” I don’t believe this because

1. Others have disproven multiple times it is not a violation of RAW

2. If you don’t like the rule, why are you fighting for it so hard when others have pointed out hard counter arguments.

15 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

(A) I think 'explicitly allowed' is a stretch, the last part of that section goes on to say:

"The marshal is responsible for determining the legality of an indicator and its reasonable usage during a match if objected to by its owner’s opponent."

So if an opponent is uncomfortable with the nature of the none-regulation token they can ask for a judge to clarify the legality of said token.

In the case of Palp and 3PO using a token to denote that the ability has been used is probably fine as this is what would be classified as "Open or derived information" however if a player were to put one of these tokens on the board next to their focus token as a reminder to use the ability that's where it get murky in terms of the rules.

(B) I've seen this argument used 3-4 times already, I think using this argument is invalid because its not a reality that someone would ever do this to circumvent the rules.

(A) I disagree. It's still derived information of the game state. It's not murky to have reminders. The current "Taking Notes & Outside Material" section in v3.0 of the Xwing Tournament Regulations allow for players to reference official rule documents that does not contain hidden information at ANY TIME.

The word "Rey" is part of official documents. Simply having the word "Rey" on ones hand does not provide any hidden information. It does not provide any addition information outside of official rule reference/documents. IN FACT it saves time in the game.

I have seen players that will say "stop" many times each game round, look over each and every one of their cards to not miss anything, and when they are satisfied they have not missed anything then say "ok." For instance, at the beginning (or end) of each phase of the game turn. Is it really stalling if they simply want to check each and every time and take 20-30 seconds each time to do it. No it's not. But it does make every round take longer and if the player has a faster way to remember a trigger, so be it. It's not an unfair advantage. It's not addition information. To call it outside information is quite the stretch.


(B) Though you've seen this argument 3, 4, 20 times means zero. And you deciding it's invalid on your opinion does not make it invalid.

I've played against someone with a "3" all by itself tattooed between their right index finger and thumb who just happened to be flying a falcon with C-3PO crew. I asked about the tattoo and he said, "I told my wife it was a simple expression to remind me of our three children" and he ended the phrase with a wink. I had no problem with the tattoo. This was two years ago. I've never seen that player since but if I did, I might be inclined to ask if he has now had a player ever question it to a TO since their are a vocal extreme minority making a stink over things written on hands and other such reminders.

If a person was actively writing on their hand during the match (ei taking notes) than maybe a case could be made. But if you come to a tournament with a single word written on ones hand, that's not a circumvention of any rule or regulation in Xwing Miniatures.