9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think you're correct, here, but to have a reasonable chance at success, it really helps if you have at least one solid passive mod to push damage through. Between HSCP and Fenn's ability, you'll have multiple ships doing suboptimal damage. A reliable damage source can swing things your way in a real way. This becomes less necessary, I think, as you gain more ships in your squad.

Yes, but the caveat is that this is true of the meta generally today - you either need reliable ways to get multiple tokens on a single ship, every round, or passive mods, or both, in order to survive. This isn't the only list, by a LONG shot, the kills your ability to use tokens.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

In this case, the trap is shooting the Ghost at all, before Fenn's dead.

Actually that worked for me a few times. As long as you manage to dodge Fenn's arc while shooting the ghost. This works for example if you land in range 3 to the ghost, but outside of range 3 for Fenn. Doing your first critical hit to the ghost in the first turn of firing is a rather solid turn 1.

If you build a kill box in the next turn you have the potential to avoid Fenns arc with 1 or 2 ships, which allows you to keep firing on the ghost instead of Fenn, which would mean that no matter what, the third turn should end the Ghost ... even without mods.

Alas, usually this won't happen and you need instead 3 turns to kill Fenn, which makes the whole game into a rather close damage race and the 18-20 point shuttle the deciding factor of the game.

If you roll a bunch of natural crits, you still might get lucky and kill Fenn in one shot.

I'm curious how 3 x Expertise + Tactican + Breach specialists Wookies do against this. If you start piling stress on him you shut down Maul rerolls. Expertise gives a finger to sensor jammer and Fenn. Reinforce token + no maul makes his ability to reliably hit harder. If he's not hitting, he's not removing stress. If he's stressed he has no actions(AKA - no end of activation boost). One stress, he doesn't care. 2 or 3 stress? Yeah that is going to start adding up.

33 minutes ago, viedit said:

I'm curious how 3 x Expertise + Tactican + Breach specialists Wookies do against this. If you start piling stress on him you shut down Maul rerolls. Expertise gives a finger to sensor jammer and Fenn. Reinforce token + no maul makes his ability to reliably hit harder. If he's not hitting, he's not removing stress. If he's stressed he has no actions(AKA - no end of activation boost). One stress, he doesn't care. 2 or 3 stress? Yeah that is going to start adding up.

Pretty well, but more due to Expertise and reinforce being good against TLT than the Tacticians. It's pretty easy for the Ghost to skip the R2 band and never take a stress. But also hard for him to get out of all those arcs and without the defensive shenanigans working it tends to lose the damage race and melt like any old Ghost always did.

Best bet for the Ghost player in that matchup would be to kite the Wookies, normally that'd be a problem since Fenn can't keep up but since he's half useless in this matchup that might be OK.

Tacticians are there more of as a insurance policy and to hopefully make your other 5 rounds of swiss survivable. Breach specialist takes some of the teeth of out of the Ezra converted crits.

I'm taking Plot Armor to 2 Regionals in this month, and I'm committed to the archetype based on the amount of time I've put in with it. However...I've only had a couple practice matches against the various versions of these Ghost lists and they haven't gone particularly well. Trading 1 HLC shot against 4 TLTs with Ezra/Maul help hasn't worked out for me, even if I can kill Fenn first.

This is what I've been running: http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!95:98,23,-1,201:14:12:;196:27,-1,3,254:39:15:&sn=Plot Armor v2&obs=

That got me thinking that maybe I want to get up close and personal. Obviously Dash's R1 HLC donut doesn't allow for that, so I've been tinkering with a Mangler version instead. The idea behind it is to get inside the TLT donut and minimize Fenn's impact with token-less mods. I love AO Poe just the way he is so I'm not contemplating changes to him.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!95:220,110,-1,201:14:27:U.192,m.12;196:27,-1,3,254:39:15:&sn=Plot Armor Mangler&obs=

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions on this non-standard Dash. Including but not limited to:

1. Will this improve my chances against Ghost/Fenn?

2. Does it hurt me against other parts of the current meta?

3. What's the right crew for this Dash? The Rey focus bank isn't as important since it's not usually needed for offensive. Maybe Zeb instead to shoot a bumped Ghost?

If the Empire were permitted to use Wookiee slaves, Expertise-QD plus two Experitse Auzitucks would be awesome. (I guess you'd have to put "Liberator" in quotes to denote the irony.)

1 hour ago, Mistborn_Jedi said:

I'm taking Plot Armor to 2 Regionals in this month, and I'm committed to the archetype based on the amount of time I've put in with it. However...I've only had a couple practice matches against the various versions of these Ghost lists and they haven't gone particularly well. Trading 1 HLC shot against 4 TLTs with Ezra/Maul help hasn't worked out for me, even if I can kill Fenn first.

This is what I've been running: http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!95:98,23,-1,201:14:12:;196:27,-1,3,254:39:15:&sn=Plot Armor v2&obs=

That got me thinking that maybe I want to get up close and personal. Obviously Dash's R1 HLC donut doesn't allow for that, so I've been tinkering with a Mangler version instead. The idea behind it is to get inside the TLT donut and minimize Fenn's impact with token-less mods. I love AO Poe just the way he is so I'm not contemplating changes to him.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!95:220,110,-1,201:14:27:U.192,m.12;196:27,-1,3,254:39:15:&sn=Plot Armor Mangler&obs=

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions on this non-standard Dash. Including but not limited to:

1. Will this improve my chances against Ghost/Fenn?

2. Does it hurt me against other parts of the current meta?

3. What's the right crew for this Dash? The Rey focus bank isn't as important since it's not usually needed for offensive. Maybe Zeb instead to shoot a bumped Ghost?

Mangler feels bad to take vs everything else. What are the odds that you can flank with Dash and harass Fenn while Poe chases the Ghost? It won't take too many coordinated Boosts before the Ghost is put of R2 of Fenn, at which point Poe starts having an easier time, and Dash can beat up Fenn. If they keep the Ghost close in, you can still weather a few turns of fire with Dash while he tries to kill Fenn.

One could theoretically trade Dash for Fenn and potentially be in a manageable situation with Poe. Engage later with Poe than Dash so Fenn has fewer opportunities to strip the Focus of Poe with HSCP. Anyway, Dash probably needs 3 turns to kill Fenn, less if you get out of arc on one turn and get to use a Focus on attack. Ghost has trouble killing him in 2.

I don't know why but something makes me want to try this out...

Feels like it would make Timewalk Assaj and Fenn a little sad.

As long as Kestal takes Fenn out on the way off the board Quickdraw and Inqy should be able to clean up the Ghost right?

16 hours ago, Javelin said:

Good idea! Let's see, add Leebo, Dash, and Collision Detector to the non-Ghost so it can always boost and shoot. Sprinkle in some stress clearance, and points fortress the shuttle...

Lothal Rebel (35)
Collision Detector (0)
Autoblaster Turret (2)
Courier Droid (0)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Ghost (Phantom II) (0)

AP-5 (15)
Kanan Jarrus (3)
"Chopper" (Astromech) (1)
Pulsed Ray Shield (2)
Phantom II (0)

Lothal Rebel (35)
Collision Detector (0)
Autoblaster Turret (2)
Dash Rendar (2)
"Leebo" (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I realized that the second large base ship with EI/Leebo doesn't need to be a Ghost. I keep trying to get Dash in, but it doesn't hit as hard, even if he has a Harpoon. Regardless, the point is that you get to boost the second ship at PS12 and can just get in close for a knife fight, and 2 Ghosts are always tough for other lists.

Talonbane Cobra (28)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Glitterstim (2)
Guidance Chips (0)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Autothrusters (2)
Vaksai (0)

Contracted Scout (25)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Intelligence Agent (1)
Rigged Cargo Chute (1)

Fenn Rau (28)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Flechette Torpedoes (2)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I feel like this would have a decent chance against Ghost/Fenn. The ideal engagement would be to drop the debris on and in front of the Ghost to double stress it and shut Maul down for at least a turn. Then Fenn has the choice to use his ability, and get double stressed from flechettes, or not use his ability and let efficient attacks through.

Once Fenn's ability has been turned off, those aces can pour damage into the Ghost.

6 hours ago, Sekac said:

Talonbane Cobra (28)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Glitterstim (2)
Guidance Chips (0)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Autothrusters (2)
Vaksai (0)

Contracted Scout (25)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Intelligence Agent (1)
Rigged Cargo Chute (1)

Fenn Rau (28)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
Flechette Torpedoes (2)
Autothrusters (2)
Concord Dawn Protector (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I feel like this would have a decent chance against Ghost/Fenn. The ideal engagement would be to drop the debris on and in front of the Ghost to double stress it and shut Maul down for at least a turn. Then Fenn has the choice to use his ability, and get double stressed from flechettes, or not use his ability and let efficient attacks through.

Once Fenn's ability has been turned off, those aces can pour damage into the Ghost.

Or you could just fly Asajj instead of Talonbane since, you know, she deals stress every turn unavoidably, unlike Flechettes. If you want to be a real jerk fly Asajj, Viktor Hel and filler - then no matter what they do everyone gets stress.

16 hours ago, Biophysical said:

It won't take too many coordinated Boosts before the Ghost is put of R2 of Fenn, at which point Poe starts having an easier time, and Dash can beat up Fenn. If they keep the Ghost close in, you can still weather a few turns of fire with Dash while he tries to kill Fenn.

You've never tried to play Poe vs ghost/fenn, haven't you? It's more or less like this:

Round 1: Fenn boosts ghost into R2 of Poe and uses hotshot to take away Poe's focus. Ghost hits Poe with primary and 2 TLT shots against 2 unmodded green dice. If you're unlucky Poe dies right there. Typically he survives at 1-3 HPs

Round 2: Ghost moves into a position that blocks Poe's green maneuvers. If Poe tries to regen, he gets no focus, ghost does coordinate boost and finishes him with a rear arc primary. If Poe doesn't get blocked (typically by doing a white maneuver) Fenn takes his focus away again and ghost finishes him off with either primaries or TLTs. Yup, you got it right. Poe goes down in about 1.5 rounds of ghost's shooting about 90% of the time. He won't survive till he has "easier time" unless he stays away from the engagement completely. Which you might do, but that just means you might get defeated in detail.

After more testing I am starting to agree that this is basically Rebel RAC/Lo but better due to the PS11 Coordinate and Resourceless Half Blinded Pilots that allows it to semi shutdown formations instead of just one ship.

Two ship turret builds ( Dash/Poe included ) need not apply without something besides Lone Wolf or VI on Dash and Poe. Formation lists probably should be left at home unless they have tokenless mods.

I think the reality at this point is that everyone needs to get much more comfortable playing lists with 3-4 ships that can do their own thing. That doesnt require 3BQD though its a good option. Scum, Rebels, and Imperials all have ways to do this.

Cards like Expertise, Lone Wolf, Linked Battery, Predator, Dengar etc are still key but you only really need one of them and its more important that multi ship non formation lists show up.

I am way over simplifying this but the most reliable way to beat this without sacrificing to much...is just to use a list with more than 2 ships that dont need to fly in formation and all can pull their own weight against TLT and in attack.

3 x Sinear Jaemus Analyst (LOL @ the the name) + FCS + AT + Advanced Optics. One gets the Title. And a 2 point bid. Fenn can only shut one down at a time. 3 sets of autothrusters, 3 green dice, 3 target locks, 3 coming in with focus's charged up. They are fast as ****. 18 health. $90 in real world monies to the FFG gods to vanquish this plague. Once Fenn is dead you have repositioning over the Ghost & Phantom.

In non-Ghost/Fenn matchups you get the bid against most boats and move/reposition after them. You have repositioning on PS1/PS3 wookies. Palp aces will probably dumpster it. Asajj/Dengar will have it's way. That Boba/Asajj list that won the regionals would murder it. It would have a decent chance against Rebel janky lists.

27 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

After more testing I am starting to agree that this is basically Rebel RAC/Lo but better due to the PS11 Coordinate and Resourceless Half Blinded Pilots that allows it to semi shutdown formations instead of just one ship.

Two ship turret builds ( Dash/Poe included ) need not apply without something besides Lone Wolf or VI on Dash and Poe. Formation lists probably should be left at home unless they have tokenless mods.

I think the reality at this point is that everyone needs to get much more comfortable playing lists with 3-4 ships that can do their own thing. That doesnt require 3BQD though its a good option. Scum, Rebels, and Imperials all have ways to do this.

Cards like Expertise, Lone Wolf, Linked Battery, Predator, Dengar etc are still key but you only really need one of them and its more important that multi ship non formation lists show up.

I am way over simplifying this but the most reliable way to beat this without sacrificing to much...is just to use a list with more than 2 ships that dont need to fly in formation and all can pull their own weight against TLT and in attack.

True enough. Unfortunately such a non-formation, multi-ship, TLT-resistant, non-token based list also needs to make sure that it can set up a good first engagement against ships that can reposition at PS11. Or it will simply lose a ship very early and then... it's not that multi-ship anymore, is it?

Frankly, I'm struggling to come up with a list that fits that description. Expertise wookies are probably the closest but that's just 3 ships, they do tend to fly in formation and their ability to resist TLTs depends on whether they can correctly set their reinforce tokens - not an easy thing to do when facing a large base turret with boost.

Also, tacticians have very limited value vs maul/ezra variant. For one thing, ghost can usually avoid range 2 band rather easily. For the other, maul+tlt is a very efficient combo for stress clearing. Missing a single reroll (or even 2) isn't a huge price to pay.

7 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

True enough. Unfortunately such a non-formation, multi-ship, TLT-resistant, non-token based list also needs to make sure that it can set up a good first engagement against ships that can reposition at PS11. Or it will simply lose a ship very early and then... it's not that multi-ship anymore, is it?

Frankly, I'm struggling to come up with a list that fits that description. Expertise wookies are probably the closest but that's just 3 ships, they do tend to fly in formation and their ability to resist TLTs depends on whether they can correctly set their reinforce tokens - not an easy thing to do when facing a large base turret with boost.

Also, tacticians have very limited value vs maul/ezra variant. For one thing, ghost can usually avoid range 2 band rather easily. For the other, maul+tlt is a very efficient combo for stress clearing. Missing a single reroll (or even 2) isn't a huge price to pay.

Need to put your 3-4 Ship Scum, Rebel, Imperial hat on and take the Wookie mask off. There are options. Most of them involve Autothrusters and green dice.

1 hour ago, Lightrock said:

You've never tried to play Poe vs ghost/fenn, haven't you? It's more or less like this:

Round 1: Fenn boosts ghost into R2 of Poe and uses hotshot to take away Poe's focus. Ghost hits Poe with primary and 2 TLT shots against 2 unmodded green dice. If you're unlucky Poe dies right there. Typically he survives at 1-3 HPs

Round 2: Ghost moves into a position that blocks Poe's green maneuvers. If Poe tries to regen, he gets no focus, ghost does coordinate boost and finishes him with a rear arc primary. If Poe doesn't get blocked (typically by doing a white maneuver) Fenn takes his focus away again and ghost finishes him off with either primaries or TLTs. Yup, you got it right. Poe goes down in about 1.5 rounds of ghost's shooting about 90% of the time. He won't survive till he has "easier time" unless he stays away from the engagement completely. Which you might do, but that just means you might get defeated in detail.

I sure haven't, I was just spitballing ideas. What if Fenn has initiative? It certainly makes the correct boost against Poe less likely.

I don't think I ever suggested jousting Poe into the Ghost, though, so yeah, I agree that's not ideal.

*LIGHTBULB*

What is the interaction between threat tracker and TLT? If you are range 2 of the Ghost and he goes to target a ship with threat tracker and a TL, can that ship use the boost/BR to get into range 1 and stop the TLT from functioning? That basically gives you "PS12" repositioning over the ghost and his PS11 boost shenanigans.

So far starvipers didn't put up much of a fight when I played against them. Fenn can shut down 2 (1 with hotshot, 1 with ability). Since Fenn can make one target tokenless, even with autothrusters they melt under modified TLT fire. And even more so against R1-2 primary shots which are not that hard to set up with a PS11 boost.

Haven't tested against silencers but I doubt they'do that much better.

5 minutes ago, Lightrock said:

So far starvipers didn't put up much of a fight when I played against them. Fenn can shut down 2 (1 with hotshot, 1 with ability). Since Fenn can make one target tokenless, even with autothrusters they melt under modified TLT fire. And even more so against R1-2 primary shots which are not that hard to set up with a PS11 boost.

Haven't tested against silencers but I doubt they'do that much better.

Yea 3 starvipers is probably still kinda bad without a ton of reps. The good viper ( you know which one ) with Torani, Scrugg, Talonbane, Fenn, or a Scout might work a bit better though.

1 minute ago, viedit said:

*LIGHTBULB*

What is the interaction between threat tracker and TLT? If you are range 2 of the Ghost and he goes to target a ship with threat tracker and a TL, can that ship use the boost/BR to get into range 1 and stop the TLT from functioning? That basically gives you "PS12" repositioning over the ghost and his PS11 boost shenanigans.

That would work alright. It might be hard to do while staying out of ghost's arcs though, especially if the opponent is aware of the danger. Good idea though.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I am way over simplifying this but the most reliable way to beat this without sacrificing to much...is just to use a list with more than 2 ships that dont need to fly in formation and all can pull their own weight against TLT and in attack.

You can fit Inquisitor, Fel, and a Quickdraw into 100 points. Two token stacking Autothrusters and a damage dealer. You dont get the token free mods, though.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

You can fit Inquisitor, Fel, and a Quickdraw into 100 points. Tow token stacking Autothrusters and a damage dealer. You dont get the token free mods, though.

Thats exactly what I have been running. With Rage Draw and Primed Thrusters.

TLT is fun right

I'm still uncertain how the interaction works. If the ghost targets someone at range 2, they threat track and boost into range 1 making the shot not possible, does he get to target another and try again? I agree it's janky as ****, but it's one way to out-troll the troll list. I question it's usefulness against many other lists though.