21 hours ago, Celestial Lizards said:

I still want to try Double Upsilons.

Only double?

Lieutenant Dormitz (31)
-Hyperwave Comm Scanner (1)
-Fire Control System (2)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
-Hyperwave Comm Scanner (1)
-Fire Control System (2)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
-Hyperwave Comm Scanner (1)
-Fire Control System (2)

Isn't it true that historically big ships fall to swarms? So what about a swarm that just ignored Fenn and went straight after the Ghost?

I can't help but think that a Blair Bunke Z swarm with missiles would take it down.

46 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

Isn't it true that historically big ships fall to swarms? So what about a swarm that just ignored Fenn and went straight after the Ghost?

I can't help but think that a Blair Bunke Z swarm with missiles would take it down.

The Z swarm might do good. The TIE-Swarm .... well, I am not sure if it does any good against Harpoons without getting the Howlrunner re-rolls. They certainly can do a lot of damage against quickdraw and starwings with their two dice attacks … might be actually worth a try.

The Elephant in the Room: how do you beat Kanan Fenn?

With F-wings and R-wings, you already knew that.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

With F-wings and R-wings, you already knew that.

By crying on the forums and subreddits until FFG nerfs them with more Nerfratas in the next NerF.A.Q. to bring Balance to the (Meta)Force.

Crying not found. There are logical ways to combat it and it will be minimized as people tech against it. If anything, I think it eats Miranda alive and is a good thing for the meta to keep her minimized.

Ghosts in the meta are never a good thing.

30 minutes ago, Kelvan said:

The Elephant in the Room: how do you beat Kanan Fenn?

I'm serious though. Just throw an insane amount of dice at it. I'm currently at a still too small sample size 3-0 with my Dakka List. Turns out when you chuck 16(-2 **** you Kanan) dice at something stuff tends to die.

4 minutes ago, Kelvan said:

I'm serious though. Just throw an insane amount of dice at it. I'm currently at a still too small sample size 3-0 with my Dakka List. Turns out when you chuck 16(-2 **** you Kanan) dice at something stuff tends to die.

True dat. As always, blocking helps as well.

12 minutes ago, Kelvan said:

I'm serious though. Just throw an insane amount of dice at it. I'm currently at a still too small sample size 3-0 with my Dakka List. Turns out when you chuck 16(-2 **** you Kanan) dice at something stuff tends to die.

Especially when it has an agility of zero.

1 hour ago, Boba Rick said:

Isn't it true that historically big ships fall to swarms? So what about a swarm that just ignored Fenn and went straight after the Ghost?

I can't help but think that a Blair Bunke Z swarm with missiles would take it down.

A swarm could work, but you do have to go in knowing you'll likely be losing a ship a round until the Ghost is dead. So its a time battle. Can you blast down the Ghost quickly enough before you run out of ships to effectively push damage through. The big problem is the Ghost is fairly **** mobile with Engine upgrade.

On 1/31/2018 at 9:45 AM, FTS Gecko said:

I'm going to repeat my earlier observation. A good old fashioned TIE swarm will theoretically wreck Kanan/Fenn every time.

Kanan/Fenn is (essentially) a hard counter to the 2-3 ship meta. Passive modifications (as @Transmogrifier points out above) and Gunner effect help mitigate it's effects, but it's still a tough, unfun match up.

Swarms and Heavy Swarms should eat it alive, though.

couldnt agree more! id take 5 khiraxz against a fatty VCX any day. 15 to 20 red dice first round of combat... deal 10 damage to the ghost and lose 1 khiraxz. then 12 dice to finsh the vcx... not an auto win but favorable odds

On 02/02/2018 at 4:55 AM, Crimsonwarlock said:

Fenn can land the R1 Side arc on the ghost no problem. Then the ghost boosts past you and Fenn eats a R1-R2 main gun shot from outside fenn's arc. Rebel fenn steals scum fenns token to boot.

So he gets one turn of damage, and then flies away and resets. There's no rule against it, and it's typically the best option. Meanwhile the rest of the list blocks Kanan next turn and focuses fire on Shuttle Fenn.

So long as Fenn keeps closing in from outside R3 he can consistently get a safe shot. Even if he does turn to follow Kanan from behind, there's precious few maneuvers that Kanan can do to guarantee a shot (4-forward, 5K basically) next turn.

People seem to be forgetting that, whilst you tech against a Ghost / Fenn list, you are setting yourself up to lose against the rest of the lists out there in a tournament setting.

That's the trick.

On 2/2/2018 at 7:10 PM, Boba Rick said:

Isn't it true that historically big ships fall to swarms? So what about a swarm that just ignored Fenn and went straight after the Ghost?

I can't help but think that a Blair Bunke Z swarm with missiles would take it down.

Swarm would probably do OK against Kanan Fenn as long as it won the damage race (and Kanan would be kiling a TIE every other round on average) but is thrashed by the rest of the meta, in particular harpoon alphas.

Z Swarm with Harpoons and one Thread Tracer might work but getting the tracer guy PS killed is a big risk.

In short, swarm just suck right now, so it's sort of irrelevant how good they are against this.

On 2/3/2018 at 11:40 AM, Astech said:

So he gets one turn of damage, and then flies away and resets. There's no rule against it, and it's typically the best option. Meanwhile the rest of the list blocks Kanan next turn and focuses fire on Shuttle Fenn.

So long as Fenn keeps closing in from outside R3 he can consistently get a safe shot. Even if he does turn to follow Kanan from behind, there's precious few maneuvers that Kanan can do to guarantee a shot (4-forward, 5K basically) next turn.

Taking a well modified range 1 shot from the Ghost out of arc has a decent chance to one-shot fenn though. Ghost with Ezra and Maul is going to be getting 4+hits and crits on most rolls, and fenn rolls 2 evades on average. If the ghost gets 4 hits 1 crit, fenn rolls 2 evades, direct hit, dead.

1 hour ago, Viktus106 said:

People seem to be forgetting that, whilst you tech against a Ghost / Fenn list, you are setting yourself up to lose against the rest of the lists out there in a tournament setting.

That's the trick.

This, in short.

This is more of a puzzle of 'how do I beat this with the list I'm running' rather than 'how do I beat this in a vaccuum'.

So earlier in this thread I mentioned this:

2 x Lothals with the same exact loadout -

-Accuracy Corrector
- TLT
- Engine upgrade
- Tactician
- Courier droid
_________
50 points each

I took this list to Indy regionals over the weekend. I placed 42 going 4-2 and missed the cut to 32 by about 35 MOV. It was the first time ever flying this list, and the first time putting two EU upgraded big base ships on the board at the same time. It took me a good 3 rounds to really get a feel for it. But once I did, I *REALLY* liked it.

Round 1 was a bittersweet win vs QD + 2 Crackshot HLC Rho's. We went to time and I had already placed dials to start the next round. I killed one boat, quick draw was still on the board, and he had one boat with one health left. I had one Ghost dead, and the other about 2 points shy of being half health. As we played out the last round he opted to slam away and try to get out of range. Didn't make it, AC'd TLT did it's thing and took him out. Had he stayed put and focused, that HLC more than likely would have taken me to half health and he had more points in QD than I did in my half point ghost.

Round 2 was against Lothal + Maul + Ezra + Fenn build. I'll save details for later, but long story short...we ended up going to final salvo after our PS3 ghosts killed each other in simultaneous fire. I had 8 dice to his 9. I lost the toss 4 to 5 hits.

Round 3 was one of the most frustrating games of X wing I've ever played. I was playing against a Jess + PTL + HLC Keyan + Expertise Wedge list. The other player was taking 10 minutes a turn and I was getting *VERY* frustrated. Some god rolls on defense kept his 1 health Jess and Wedge alive far longer than they ever should have. As time was expiring I had one ghost dead, one at 12 health. I had killed Jess, Keyan was untouched, and Wedge was sitting on 1 health. I had one decent maneuver + boost that I could do that would hopefully force a bump from Keyan and keep me in range of attacking Wedge. So I had to do that to win. Keyan does a 1 forward and misses the bump by about 1/2". Wedge K-turns and I'm out of his arc but he's in range of mine. All I need is Keyan to not do 4 hits and I'm good. Keyan rolls hit crit, blank focus. Rerolls the blank into a focus and eats the stress to convert to 4 hits. That takes me to below half health and the salt in the wound was the crit was a blinded pilot that prevented me from getting a shot to kill Wedge. I replay that game 5 more times and I win each time.

Round 4 was against Low + Wulf + Jess. Courier droids were MONEY in this matchup. He setup in top left from me, pointing all three to the right. Ok. So I setup directly across and just dropped the hammer. At that point he was trying to move faster than me while I plinked from behind on Low with TLT's. Tacticians came in handy. He had PTL on Low and he wound up double stressed several times. TLT's make selflessnes uselessnes and I just chased him from behind the entire time and burned him down pretty quick. I won 100-25.

Round 5 was against Palp + LW Stealth Ryad + Quiz and Prockets. I had palp burned down by 4th turn having never firing a shot. Ryad had her stealth device popped in a hurry (I was rolling HOT on TLT's) and died in a bloodbath having landed range 1 of both ghost primaries. Quiz was able to pop a 4 procket hit on one ghost but ultimately just couldn't tank the constant assault of two AC'd TLT's. His double stress limited his speed and I trying to maximize the rear arc combo of TLT + Tactican. I won that 100 - 25 again.

Round 6 was against NuNuNuQD. His build was odd. It was teched to beat Nym + Miranda and the mirror. His Nu's were Ion, Mangler and Tractor. Quick draw was also running a bit lean and he had a healthy bid. This game was mostly a blood bath. The Nu's just simply couldn't keep arc on the speed and boost positioning of my ghosts going at PS3. Every two rounds I had a boat burned down. AC'd TLT's just murder them. It came down to QD vs two Ghosts running close to half health. He gets both of them below half health before going down. Won 100-50.

.......

So back to the point of this thread...Ghost + Fenn

I think with a few more reps against it I'll take my list in most matches. TLT + AC gives sensor jammer + Fenn the finger. If it's a Kanan list I'm even happier about it. I think as the meta shifts out the Maul + Ezra is going to be the better build. It just gives that primary 4/5 dice attack SO much more teeth than Kanan. Fenn giving him a PS11 boost lets him line up the front or rear arc better. When Teching out my list I was thinking of the TLT being the real damage dealer. The truth is that it's the primary in this list that does the real work. The TLT follow up at end of combat is just a bonus. I need to play a few more reps to get a good feel for combating this list. Everything says to go for Fenn first, but with how I'm spec'd I think that's a trap. I need to follow his lead better and keep more clear of those primary arcs. Put in some work with each ghost and then pull away the one that's more hurt. Let the fresh one take him down the rest of the way. Then keep two damaged ghosts on the table to take out Fenn and Zeb. I'm comfortable with that matchup. I'd feel even better vs a Kanan list that couldn't get as much offensive re-rolls + Ezra modification. I also don't care if at Range 2 Kanan knocks me down to 2 dice. Whatever. AC to 2 hits that are guaranteed to hit (unless he's obstructed and rolls an evade and has an evade token). I'll trade damage with him and win.

It took a while to get a feel for my list and how it wanted to operate. Normally with a double ghost you want to get in close and murder stuff. Not so with this one. They want to stay at range three, kite and nibble at things. Two of them burn down things in a hurry. AC'd TLT's were absolute money in almost every match. Roll hit blank focus? Don't care. Hit hit. Gunboats didn't stand a chance. They were slamming for their life but couldn't move fast enough to get out range 3. It worked well vs reinforce. LWF Quick draw was very sad. If you AC to two hits, she only gets two green dice. You could see the demoralized looks on opponents faces. I totally mitigated the dice variance of my list vs 0 & 1 agility ships. You ARE getting hit. Vs 2 agility? You probably are getting hit. Vs 3 agility? Between 4 TLT's you are probably eating one damage.

The list held up well and I got A LOT more comfortable with it as the day went on. EU'd Ghosts are FAST and a white 2 turn + boost puts you in places that people aren't expecting you to be in. I think my list has legs and is a decent counter to a lot of things out there. It just bleeds MOV. So you *HAVE* to win to ensure a spot in the cut. I was a final salvo and 1 blinded pilot crit away from being 6-0.

Trouble with double AC ghosts is that Poe exists, and if he's out of arc or at range 3, you have a VERY low chance to kill him.

He still only has 2 green dice. Against 4 AC'd shots they will chew through. Plus you setup blocks and work the tacticians to stress him. Also rear arc of ghost won't trigger AutoThruster (unless range 3) so you have 2x the coverage of a traditional turret.

Poe has to roll 2 blanks to take an ac TLT hit is he has autos on. Everything else nets him 2 results. 2 eyeballs is also bad. And the one time every other round he takes a damage he has regen.

If I found Poe to be a threat, the points are there to dump Tacticians and throw hotcop on one and chopper on the other. Would also be some insurance against advanced optics Kylo and Rey crew.

59 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Poe has to roll 2 blanks to take an ac TLT hit is he has autos on. Everything else nets him 2 results. 2 eyeballs is also bad. And the one time every other round he takes a damage he has regen.

Think is, if he is in range 2, he takes the stress. If he takes the stress he should be easy to kept in arc, if he is in arc you can roll your 4 or 5 dice with focus and should keep the pressure up.

Tactician only triggers in arc. If I thought I had a chance to catch him in arc of primary I'd probably do a focus action and throw 4 dice and see what happens. But the strength of the list is just pure attrition of mods due to hitting 8/12 dice.

2 minutes ago, viedit said:

Tactician only triggers in arc. If I thought I had a chance to catch him in arc of primary I'd probably do a focus action and throw 4 dice and see what happens. But the strength of the list is just pure attrition of mods due to hitting 8/12 dice.

Yeah and Poe is one of those things that needs to be approach different. Those TLTs will not cut it, unless you add Maul+Ezra to at least one of those VCX-100.
And keep in mind that you have two arcs with those ghosts, the special firing arc counts still as arc, even if you are just firing your turret.

33 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Yeah and Poe is one of those things that needs to be approach different. Those TLTs will not cut it, unless you add Maul+Ezra to at least one of those VCX-100.
And keep in mind that you have two arcs with those ghosts, the special firing arc counts still as arc, even if you are just firing your turret.

Yep. Usually it's Dash + Poe. Dash is my main target early. With courier Droids I get to place after him and bum rush before he builds up his Rey battery. He melts to TLT fire. He won't try to bail too hard towards Poe since he loses lone wolf then making him even easier to hit. That keeps Poe out of action an extra turn or two. Watch some of the Fenn + Ghost lists from Glendale Mandalore vs Poe and watch that TLT fire just burn Dash to the ground. I'm going to have to bail one of the ghosts to save health but he can go down in three rounds.

Then it's just a function of getting two big base arcs on Poe and get some key blocks and tear through him.

On 2/2/2018 at 3:36 PM, Kelvan said:

I'm serious though. Just throw an insane amount of dice at it. I'm currently at a still too small sample size 3-0 with my Dakka List. Turns out when you chuck 16(-2 **** you Kanan) dice at something stuff tends to die.

What’s the Dakka list?