What's your best use case for Profundity commander/officer swapping?

By Nostromoid, in Star Wars: Armada

I see how the first part of the Profundity title can be useful: drop a hammerhead in position to double-arc a ship and ram it, or drop a CR90B carrying SW7s or HIEs. And maybe those are enough. But there's a second part to the title: "At the start of any round, you may deploy the set-aside ship at distance 1. You may un-equip up to 1 Commander and 1 Officer upgrade cards and equip them to it (if able)." I'm struggling to think of a use for So the question is: What is this part of the title good for?

The Good

These use cases aren't a sure thing by any stretch (because I'm not convinced that there is a really good reason for using the second paragraph of the Profundity title) but for want of a legitimately good use, they might have to do. A card like Profundity forces you to give up more than just points and an upgrade slot. By setting aside a ship until halfway through the game, you're giving up a deployment and also likely giving up a ship activation for a couple of rounds. So a good use of Profundity actually has to be extra good in order to make it worthwhile.

  1. You want to re-enact the Battle of Scarif. Complete with Tantive IV, Leia Organa, and Capture the VIP objective. Congratulations, this is pretty much the only reason to use the second paragraph of the Profundity title with any frequency. Unless I'm wrong, which I'd love to be.
  2. You ignore the second paragraph of the title, but you found a way that the ability to toss out a small ship is worth the price of the title. As a bonus, there's another option that you'll rarely if ever use.
  3. You make Profundity tanky as ****, and then transfer a tanky officer to a smaller ship once Profundity has sponged up all the fire it can absorb. Now we might be getting somewhere. Maybe Major Derlin (or Damage Control Officer) forces the enemy to commit even harder to killing the Profundity, which rushes up into the opponent's face. Then Derlin on a 1-command small ship might help it survive one extra attack. You get Derlin with two health bars, like a video game boss fight. You could try it... but my instincts tell me that's cutting the points value of the card to a razor-thin margin. At the same time that you get more value out of a defensive upgrade, you're also buying a 7-point title for the privilege.
  4. You want to use Profundity to fine-tune your fleet to counter your opponent's list. You kit out multiple Hammerheads with different tool sets, for example one is an APT killer, one is a Flechette Torpedoes flak boat. You put Intel Officer on Profundity and then you get to choose each game, based on what your opponent brings, whether you want to set aside one or the other or neither. If you set one aside, you could transfer the Intel Officer onto the Hammerhead in question, either making the APT boat a little scarier to ships or else making FT boat a little scarier to ace squadrons. Is this consistently useful enough to be worth a 7-point title? Well... I guess you could try it.
  5. Lando's job is to protect the MC-75, but if Lando hasn't been used and you still feel confident that the MC-75 isn't in danger, then maybe the little ship can make use of him. This is a possibility, but I'd argue that Lando is more valuable if he protects a ship worth more points, like the MC-75, if you never find a need to use Lando to protect the MC-75, then either you're playing too conservatively or your opponent has screwed up big time.
  6. A future card makes this better. Maybe in the future we'll see some synergy that makes this good.

The Bad

There's some hypothetical version of these usages that could be clutch, but each one depends on the game unfolding "just so," and so I'd say it's a waste to build your fleet around.

  1. You rescue your commander or some linch pin officer card, just before Profundity explodes. A possibility on paper, but not a viable reason to take the title, in my opinion. It just is not efficient to spend points, give up a deployment, and give up one activation every round until you drop the small ship. Using it as an escape pod is treating the text as "When you lose, lose differently."
    • If Profundity faces certain doom, it's completely unreliable that you would have the window of opportunity to deploy the smaller ship in time, except if your opponent's plan fails or if you are very lucky. You shouldn't go into battle with a plan that relies on either incompetence or luck.
    • If Profundity faces certain doom, I don't see how saving just one commander and/or officer will save the game for you. You've just lost over a quarter of your fleet points. If you do the Profundity trick and your opponent tables you, you'll have to wonder if investing in something more reliable than the Profundity title might have helped you win, instead of just lose differently.
    • Both of the above issues make this scenario exceedingly rare, and puts it more into the gimmick category, rather than a tactic. And it's an expensive gimmick, so even in the rare case that it helps you, you've still wasted points in all your other games when it did nothing for you.
  2. You decide to take an officer that would be valuable on the MC-75 and you give it to the smaller ship for no good reason. There's no smaller ship that hits as hard as an MC-75, so Intel Officer gives you more value by remaining on the MC-75. And there's no smaller ship that's worth as many points to keep alive as an MC-75 is, so Lando gives you more value by remaining on the MC-75. The timing window of Profundity dropping the smaller ship and moving the upgrade cards happens before either of the ships will activate, so you aren't increasing the times that you use the upgrades, you're just changing the platform on which you use the upgrades. And the MC-75 is pretty much always a more valuable platform than a small ship.
  3. You want to get the "another friendly ship" passive buff of an officer on ships around Profundity, and then get the buff on Profundity itself. Like Leia Organa or Toryn Farr. This seems no better than having that officer equipped to the small ship from the very beginning, and not setting that ship aside, except if you think your opponent will snipe out that flotilla, and only in the womb of an MC-75 can it be kept safe until it gets to the drop zone.

The Ugly

You should definitely not intend to use Profundity to try the following. They're either explicitly not allowed according to a careful reading of the rules, or else they're not clearly defined in the rules and attempting them during a game would certainly start an argument with an opponent, with you as the cheese lord arguing that "if it isn't specifically forbidden by the rules, then you can't stop me." If you used Jamming Field the broken way, don't get any ideas.

  1. Kitting out your small ship with one officer, because if it looks like you'll want a different officer for the situation at hand, at the time you deploy it, you can replace it with a different officer from Profundity. Doesn't work, because Profundity says "if able," which seems to clearly say that if the upgrade slot on the small ship is already occupied, you don't get to put something in its place.
  2. Putting your commander into a flotilla lifeboat in order to bypass the FAQ that says commanders can't ride in flotillas. Profundity says "if able," and commanders are not able to be equipped to flotillas.
  3. Making Profundity survive as a Rieekan zombie, and then moving Rieekan from Profundity to another ship so he can keep on doing his ability. Won't work. A destroyed Profundity kept in the play area by Rieekan is removed in the Status Phase, before Profundity would get to transfer the commander.
  4. Double-tapping a discard/exhaust officer by using it once on Profundity, and then equipping it on the small ship and using it again. I mean, when you "equip" an upgrade, don't you naturally equip it face-up and ready to go? Can't I use Lando or Walex or Hondo or Intel Officer or Adar Tallon, and then use 'em again on the small ship? 'Fraid not. Here's where the rules are kind of vague because unequipping/re-equipping are not mentioned in the rules before Wave 7. However, the rules lean toward disallowing it, even if it isn't explicitly covered.
    • "If a ship’s upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped facedown but remains equipped for the purposes of scoring," (RRG p.13) implies that discarded upgrade cards are not considered equipped except for the purposes of scoring, so it's not selectable to un-equip from Profundity.
    • "Upgrade cards are readied during the Status Phase" (RRG p.13) defines how to ready a card, meaning that nothing else will ready an exhausted card.
    • Don't overlook the obvious timing of Profundity, which is used at the start of a round. Any exhausted cards would have been readied during the Status Phase, so there's no double-tapping of those.

Hmm, you could use the title for one of "the good" uses and make it your flagship. When you realize you screwed up last round (or your opponent positioned really good for the kill) you can still use it as a lifeboat. The point is that you can equip it in a way that it can be used actively OR as a reaction whatever is needed more. This way some of the points would be spend for flexibility.

26 minutes ago, LennoxPoodle said:

Hmm, you could use the title for one of "the good" uses and make it your flagship. When you realize you screwed up last round (or your opponent positioned really good for the kill) you can still use it as a lifeboat. The point is that you can equip it in a way that it can be used actively OR as a reaction whatever is needed more. This way some of the points would be spend for flexibility.

Something like a GR-75 with Quantum Storm to get your admiral and a pricey officer the **** out of there if it's all going badly? Maybe with Slicer Tools to help cover the retreat, and to be used aggressively if your MC-75 is surviving ok.

@AkhrinYou good it although I would switch the priority order and swap the pricy officer with commander (those whose global effects can't be used anymore if they are killed).

11 minutes ago, Akhrin said:

Something like a GR-75 with Quantum Storm to get your admiral and a pricey officer the **** out of there if it's all going badly? Maybe with Slicer Tools to help cover the retreat, and to be used aggressively if your MC-75 is surviving ok.

Impossible. The “if able”combines with the rule that disallows flottilas from having commanders. It says “equip” flottilas cant equip commanders

The "if able" also kills off any chanced of combining it with Bail. Before I noticed this I was speculating that it could be a sneaky way of getting Bail on a small ship and being able to deploy the small ship on Bail's turn and instantly moving it, with the flexibility of keeping Bail on the Profundity if desired. I though the whole design of the card centered around Bail because like the OP, I don't see any other officer I'd like to make jump ship. Just so disappointed when I noticed the "if able" restriction.

In summary, no I can't think of any officer that goes well with it, besides as a last resort lifeboat.

1 hour ago, Jabby said:

Impossible. The “if able”combines with the rule that disallows flottilas from having commanders. It says “equip” flottilas cant equip commanders

You'd have thought I'd have remembered something like that. That's what I get for typing before I finish thinking something through!

Oh boy, I can do life boating again with Profundity.

Its a nice versatile card decent offensive ability and a decent defensive ability. I like the option to have a backup if things go sideways on you, even if it's not useful 100% of the time (I'm ok with that because it's coulpled with it's primary offensive ability) it's always nice to have a plan B.

49 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Oh boy, I can do life boating again with Profundity.

Negative.

The only idea I've seen to use the transfer part of the Profundity title is one from @geek19: Begin the game with Tantive IV in hiding and Raymus Antilles on the 75, powering it up with tokens. Then, once you get good tokens on the 75 and Tantive IV can contribute to combat, drop it off and use it to get two flotillas' effect for the price of not-quite-three. I'm not saying this is a cost-effective plan, but it's the best I've seen.

My thought is that the second part of the ability is an interesting (and perhaps thematic) side benefit. The primary benefit of the title is the ability to drop a small ship at distance 1 of the Profundity that is allowed to go first. Cages to hold an important enemy ship in place. Ramming shenanigans. Short range killer delivery system. Seems like a great job for a Garel's Honor Hammerhead to me.

The second part of the ability is...secondary. I'd only use it to save points if the commander on Profundity was in danger. Not something you build your list to exploit, but a possibility that could save you 20-38 points and your commander ability.

Like @RobertK says - deliver an assassin Hammerhead to attack, ram, and block the victim preventing escape

Ayup. I have a whole list developed around this tactic. Raddus Profundity Ordnance Cruiser with a decked out Liberty and Garel's Honor waiting in the wings. Profundity dives in on something important and then creates a traffic jam using Garel's Honor (w/ ExRax) and a Liberty to follow up. Two large-based ships and a small all stacked closely in front of something leaves very little room for that something to land safely. Though the Liberty can't go first it's probably going to get a shot since your victim is probably stuck in place even if they activate before Liberty. @JJs Juggernaut's World Cup list put Raddus on an MC30 and brought in Profundity and a Hammerhead something like this. I'm going to keep an eye out for logs of his games on Vassal. The MC30 might be a better platform because it is very unpredictable in its positioning. Seems interesting, though. Requires aggressive play.

No MC30 from profundity, sadly- the title specifies a command 1 small ship.

Maybe you can get a flak nova turn in by pushing Draven? Flak with profundity, shred on a-wings, dump a combat gr-75, move him over, shred more a-wings? I don’t know, it seems like a lot to invest for something that’s only useful against certain squad builds

I like the idea of a flotilla packing Flight Commander, Rapid Launch Bays and some B-wings dropping out of the Profundity bay.

47 minutes ago, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

Maybe you can get a flak nova turn in by pushing Draven? Flak with profundity, shred on a-wings, dump a combat gr-75, move him over, shred more a-wings? I don’t know, it seems like a lot to invest for something that’s only useful against certain squad builds

You could do to this, but you would move Draven at the start of the round, before either ship activates. So, you would get no additional procs of Draven, though you could get procs of Draven on a different platform, if you wanted.

But like I said above, you're paying for the privilege, and you'd be hard pressed to find a ship that can get more value out of an upgrade than an MC75. It certainly throws more AS dice than a flotilla would. Best thing I can say about this is that Profundity could do the Draven thing for a few rounds, then deploy a flotilla with Draven that then carries on flak duties so Profundity can focus on ship killing. It has a little bit of usefulness, as long as the battle unfolds just so.

The good news is that people are so excited to use this title based on the first part, that we'll soon hear whether the second part ever becomes useful.

Maybe it will be better once the anti squadron Braha'tok flotilla will be released.

2 hours ago, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

No MC30 from profundity, sadly- the title specifies a command 1 small ship.

Yes. But JJ puts Raddus on the MC30 which is deployed normally during setup. Raddus triggers on a subsequent turn to bring in the MC75 Profundity, which has a Hammerhead Corvette on board to deploy using its title. The center of mass of his formation shifts VERY dramatically when the MC75 arrives.

Edited by RobertK

You can have Toryn Farr on the Profundity move to another small ship so the Profundity gets to use her blue dice ability.

Also, you could have a specialist officer such as Adar Talon move to a dedicated pocket carrier when Profundity starts using a different command or is no longer able to use it.

Finally, if you have an officer that does something special on a given command, you can break them out to a ship when you simultaneously need their ability in close proximity but cannot or do not want that command on Profundity. Right now, this mostly seems like a boarding action thing but we could see similar edge cases in the future.

5 hours ago, LennoxPoodle said:

Maybe it will be better once the anti squadron Braha'tok flotilla will be released.

Agreed. Proud member of the Broha'tok Fan Club here. of course a DP-20 Gunship also appeals to me to :)