So I was looking at the timing of Crimson Leader and Accuracy Corrector and I had three questions:

1. When does Crimson Leader's ability trigger?
2. If it triggers during the “Modify Attack Dice” step, can I spend a result for the ability and then trigger Accuracy Corrector so my target ends up with "Rattled" and two hits?
3. Can I trigger Accuracy Corrector and then spend one of those two hits to trigger the ability?

The relevant card text from Crimson Leader:

Quote

When attacking, if the defender is inside your firing arc, you may spend one hit or critical hit result to assign the "Rattled" Condition to the defender.

And from Accuracy Corrector:

Quote

When attacking, during the “Modify Attack Dice” step, you may cancel all of your dice results. Then, you may add 2 hit results to your roll. Your dice cannot be modified again during this attack.

My assumption is that Crimson Leader's ability triggers during the “Modify Attack Dice” step, so I could resolve them in any order. And since spending a result isn't listed as a dice modification, I'd think that the answer to my third question is yes as well.

I think that's all legit.

Per the rules, canceling a die is not modifying a die so that combo should work!

1. I'd presume in the "attacker modifies attack dice" step; 3.ii on the flow chart.

2. I see zero problems with this.

3. Probably, but I don't know. I personally am fine with this, but I don't recall if we've seen the term "spend" before with regards to modifying dice. It's different enough from Cancel that I don't think I can 100% shrug off the concept that "spend" might be a form of modify. I'm leaving like 5% wiggle room that it would be modifying dice. If I was thinking of running the combo in a larger tournament, I'd run it past the TO, to avoid surprises. Again, I think it's nearly all good.

'Spend' is definitely not a form of modification unless the rules are errated.

But it's not a form of anything at all, so RAW, who the heck knows. Spending results is unprecedented.

19 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

'Spend' is definitely not a form of modification unless the rules are errated.

But it's not a form of anything at all, so RAW, who the heck knows. Spending results is unprecedented.

Spending a die is a thing in Armada. I am inclined to believe the design team got their lingo mixed up between the two games...

I too see no reason why this combo wouldn't work.

In "Omega Leader" (FAQ page 13)

Adding or subtracting dice (i.e. Jan Ors) and
canceling die results (i.e. Crack Shot) do not
count as modifying dice. However, added die
results (C-3P0, Advanced Targeting Computer,
Accuracy Corrector, etc.) do count as modifying dice and cannot be used.

Since there really is no timing window given for speed a dice i might even argue you could wait and see if you hit before you spend the dice. (would need to think about that some more and do some digging)

52 minutes ago, Arachneo said:

In "Omega Leader" (FAQ page 13)

Adding or subtracting dice (i.e. Jan Ors) and
canceling die results (i.e. Crack Shot) do not
count as modifying dice. However, added die
results (C-3P0, Advanced Targeting Computer,
Accuracy Corrector, etc.) do count as modifying dice and cannot be used.

None of which says anything about spending dice.

16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

None of which says anything about spending dice.

But spend a dice is "substracting dice" to gain an effect.

So ....

15 minutes ago, Arachneo said:

But spend a dice is "substracting dice" to gain an effect.

So ....

No its really not, you are subtracting dice from your roll in that FAQ entry. very different than spending a dice for an effect.

Omega Leader 's entry mentions nothing about spending a die result, so it's quite irrelevant in this case. Subtracting a die is definitely not the same as spending a die result , so anything referring to subtracting dice or their results is also quite irrelevant. "Spending a die result" is a nice new mechanic that conveniently appears nowhere within the rules.

Technically, it would seem that Crimson Leader can trigger at any stage after rolling attack dice (Step 2) to the beginning of the Compare Results step (6.i). Most logically, it would seem to fall within Step 3.ii, but it may end up getting FAQed into 6.i. Who knows? Stranger things have happened in the past.

Is it a dice modification? We have no way of knowing. But if you want to use it with Accuracy Corrector, then 3.ii is where you need to use it. Accuracy Corrector states you cannot modify your dice again during this attack, and that brings us back to the question of " is spending a die result a modification? ". Which we don't know the answer to at this stage. The logical conclusion to me would be, trigger Crimson Leader in Step 3.ii, and then trigger Accuracy Corrector, and you're done. There's nothing dodgy in that sequence, and it's all legit.

If you leave CL until after AC ( in the hope that you can spend on of the AC results ), be prepared for a possible argument about modifying after AC, and whether or not CL's "spend" is a dice modification. Because that's an argument that's going to be really hard to win with absolutely no precedents to back you up.

I hate to say it, but it probably needs a FAQ entry to define whether or not it is now going to be a dice modification, and/or where it's timing trigger actually falls during the attack sequence.

But one thing we do know for sure is that anyone trying a CL/AC combo cannot use it when dropping bomb, because dropping a bomb is not an attack. You're going to have to hope that the defender manages to overlap a bomb later.

9 hours ago, Arachneo said:

But spend a dice is "substracting dice" to gain an effect.

So ....

NO it's not.

Adding and subtracting dice takes place well before you roll them, so you can't do it to results, as CL does.

I almost wish I said nothing. Eh, the debate probably would have happened anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Personally, I think Spending is essentially a typo, and RAI should probably be considered the same as cancelling. However, because the words are different, I think there's a slight space for doubt.

Feels like FFG has been sloppy lately (maybe always?), but I'm also thinking about Contraband Cybernetics referring to "performing red maneuvers" and performing is never something we've ever done with maneuvers before...

It needs saying.

Send the question in to FFG, it might get FAQed in a few months, if enough people ask...

the ONLY way you could "subtract dice" to gain effect is if before you actually roll you toss 1 die aside THEN roll - i.e. Miranda
Anything that happens after you roll is not the same as rolling more/less dice.

Spend is a word that i agree they probably fudged up and didnt realize they said an Armada term. But its not modding, so it should work. Modding is defined as adding die results, changing die results, or rerolling die results. Nothing about removing the die from the pool is considered modifying.

14 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I almost wish I said nothing. Eh, the debate probably would have happened anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Personally, I think Spending is essentially a typo, and RAI should probably be considered the same as cancelling. However, because the words are different, I think there's a slight space for doubt.

Feels like FFG has been sloppy lately (maybe always?), but I'm also thinking about Contraband Cybernetics referring to "performing red maneuvers" and performing is never something we've ever done with maneuvers before...

Don't beat yourself up over it. The question was asked, and the answer is far from clear. I think your assessment of it is probably what 90% of players out there would come up with as well. But it does sound like FFG have a new team member that is utilising keywords from a different game system, and that's creating certain amounts of confusion. The Contraband Cybernetics card is probably an example of that. Although that might also be just a case of omitting " executing " a red maneuver for the sake of space on the card.

I asked my original questions before buying the Resistance Bomber. Looking over the included rules pamphlet I found the following:

Quote

Spent Dice Results

Some card abilities allow dice results to be spent. After a result is spent, the die containing it is removed from the rolled dice. A removed die is no longer part of the roll and does not contribute any other effects. Spending dice results is not a dice modification.

When attacking or defending, dice results are spent during the "Modify Dice" step unless specified otherwise. For other effects, the time at which the die result is spent is specified by the source of the ability.

So Spending is a new mechanic and is explicitly not a dice modification. Spending occurs during the "Modify Dice" step unless specified otherwise.

I think we might have reached/past the point where FFG needs to release a new rule book that incorporates all the new rules that have been introduced since the blue base set came out.

@Nspace thank you for posting the text from the included pamphlet

FFG really needs to issue an expanded rules reference book with the additional rules from the various pamphlets so people who don't buy everything can still read it. A PDF on the website next to the Rules Reference and FAQ would be great.

It would save a lot of confusion for those that don't own absolutely everything .

Of course the frakking hid it in the rule book. Why wouldn't they at this point.

So yeah, the AC interaction works in either direction (roll the result naturally, spend, then use AC for 2 hits, OR use AC for 2 hits then spend one of them).