23 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I am ok with Jendon losing relay ability.

14 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

15pts for strategic and relay. Seems fair to me.

62pts to doubletap two squadrons which cant reposition. Yeah that seems ok.

20pts for doubletapping a single squad which can reposition. Cheap but ok its about acceptable.

20pts to doubletap and relay2? You are having a fecking laugh.

A 20 point squadron... that hits like a (different) 20 point squadron? Without relay, why would you not just bring any two of the three: Bossk, Maarek and Vader. That’s as good as what Jendon would do, even if one dies on you. If you brought flight controllers or positioning is tricky, it’s better. Here’s the thing. Relay is broken. Yavaris/FCT is broken. Demolisher triple taps, Gallant Haven, ABT, and Strategic Fire Lanes/Sensor Net are all broken. At what point do broken things have enough competition to not be broken anymore? Is there something that people feel should be viable but isn’t, because of relay? Are there Relay-dominated metas somewhere? What’s the context here beyond “I feel like this is generally too good?”

13 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

A 20 point squadron... that hits like a (different) 20 point squadron?

Not just a different 20pt squad, the optimal 20pt squad at each opportunity.

13 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Without relay, why would you not just bring any two of the three: Bossk, Maarek and Vader.

Well they arent 20pts so thats a good start.

If you are against aces you dont want bossk (unless angry). If you are against ships then again bossk isnt great.

Why would you not want saber twice against aces and valen twice against generics for far cheaper...?

8 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

A 20 point squadron... that hits like a (different) 20 point squadron? Without relay, why would you not just bring any two of the three: Bossk, Maarek and Vader. That’s as good as what Jendon would do, even if one dies on you. If you brought flight controllers or positioning is tricky, it’s better. Here’s the thing. Relay is broken. Yavaris/FCT is broken. Demolisher triple taps, Gallant Haven, ABT, and Strategic Fire Lanes/Sensor Net are all broken. At what point do broken things have enough competition to not be broken anymore? Is there something that people feel should be viable but isn’t, because of relay? Are there Relay-dominated metas somewhere? What’s the context here beyond “I feel like this is generally too good?”

The general hatred is towards things that are not seen as fun and interactive. Any strategy that revolves around eliminating your opponents choices or ability to play is generally no fun. All of the items in your list have that common vein. That is why abilities that change speed, change commands, remove tokens, etc are so expensive, they just are not any fun to play against. So the design trend has been to make them so expensive in points/opportunity cost that player are discouraged or paying a heavy price to use them(slicer tools, raiding, speed changes). The obviously irony is that good gameplay in Armada is about giving your opponent a choice between bad choice, so we are walking a very thin line methinks.

Breakdown of your list:

Relay - allows a player to keep most of their points(ships) safely out of an engagement and interaction
Yavaris/FCT +Intel - allows an extreme burst of damage without any time for player interaction
Demo + ET + First/Last - allowed(RIP Demo+ET) an extreme burst of damage without any time for player interaction
Gallant Haven - makes squadron interaction extremely cost inefficient to the point of no interaction
ABT + First/Last - allows an extreme burst of damage without any time for player interaction
Strategic Fire Lanes/Sensor Net - goal of the list is to only allow the first player to interact on very unfavorable terms

All of these lists are matchup dependent, and certainly can be countered. To counter them usually will severely weaken your list against other matchups. In the sense of the health of the game though, none of them are probably a good thing.

Two common themes in your list of "broken" are title cards(Yav,GH,Demo,Av,Def) and low cost ship spam for first/last. Just as a point.

16 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Not just a different 20pt squad, the optimal 20pt squad at each opportunity.

Well they arent 20pts so thats a good start.

If you are against aces you dont want bossk (unless angry). If you are against ships then again bossk isnt great.

Why would you not want saber twice against aces and valen twice against generics for far cheaper...?

And the downsides, in my mind at least, more than bridge that 1-3 point gap. Adar Tallon does almost exactly the same thing for 10 points, without eating into your squad cap. The only savings are in the cost of Saber and Valen. To use them twice, you're paying eight and seven points more, and in Saber's case, you're banking on it not being killed. With three hull and no tokens, that's a big if.

3 minutes ago, AdmiralYor said:

The general hatred is towards things that are not seen as fun and interactive. Any strategy that revolves around eliminating your opponents choices or ability to play is generally no fun. All of the items in your list have that common vein. That is why abilities that change speed, change commands, remove tokens, etc are so expensive, they just are not any fun to play against. So the design trend has been to make them so expensive in points/opportunity cost that player are discouraged or paying a heavy price to use them(slicer tools, raiding, speed changes). The obviously irony is that good gameplay in Armada is about giving your opponent a choice between bad choice, so we are walking a very thin line methinks.

Breakdown of your list:

Relay - allows a player to keep most of their points(ships) safely out of an engagement and interaction
Yavaris/FCT +Intel - allows an extreme burst of damage without any time for player interaction
Demo + ET + First/Last - allowed(RIP Demo+ET) an extreme burst of damage without any time for player interaction
Gallant Haven - makes squadron interaction extremely cost inefficient to the point of no interaction
ABT + First/Last - allows an extreme burst of damage without any time for player interaction
Strategic Fire Lanes/Sensor Net - goal of the list is to only allow the first player to interact on very unfavorable terms

All of these lists are matchup dependent, and certainly can be countered. To counter them usually will severely weaken your list against other matchups. In the sense of the health of the game though, none of them are probably a good thing.

Two common themes in your list of "broken" are title cards(Yav,GH,Demo,Av,Def) and low cost ship spam for first/last. Just as a point.

Excellent points. Let the record show I don't really view the list as broken, just that all of those things have led to complaint threads. It's easy to overlook that you have been given a choice: Flak the squads or chase the ships. If you're not shooting ships you can shoot squads, so there's plenty of room to do both. I recently played an interesting game with relay where my opponent decided to chase down my flotillas with MC30s. My TIEs had difficulty catching up. Gozantis died. Painfully. Had he not chosen to send the rest of his force against my ISD, he would have likely won. MC30s aren't the only flotilla chasers. Intel officer Glads/Arqs, Raiders, CR90s, even Madine Liberties if they aren't busy... The flotilla nerf seems like a fine idea, to make tabling easier. That gives you another choice, but even now Relay has plenty of vulnerabilities to exploit. I should know, mine have been exploited enough times.

If Relay got clobbered (or just toned down) we would just have to revert to Centicore.

Seriously though I don't think I've ever seen Centicore used - and if Relay was so overpowered wouldn't it be as common as Demolisher.

My problem with relay really boils down to that it feels boring to play against the relay spam lists. When your opponent puts 4 ships hugging the back wall while a blob of 134 points of squadrons flies towards you... Barring certain fleet types you may or may not have bought, it really limits your options.

Sure, if you have the perfect tools to snipe those relay squads (I maintain this is harder than people make it out to be... VCXs have lots of hull and Jendon's not easy to remove), or if you have a couple ET cr90s then sure, you have some tools to combat it.

But if you don't have those very specific tools.. then your best option is to deploy your entire fleet/squad ball as tight as possible and just try to be a rock the wave of squadrons breaks upon. It doesn't feel like there's much decision making to be had on either side and you're just rolling dice at each other.

42 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

And the downsides, in my mind at least, more than bridge that 1-3 point gap. Adar Tallon does almost exactly the same thing for 10 points, without eating into your squad cap. The only savings are in the cost of Saber and Valen. To use them twice, you're paying eight and seven points more, and in Saber's case, you're banking on it not being killed. With three hull and no tokens, that's a big if.

Notice how you have strongly argued that Jendons doubletap ability is worth around 18-20pts.

Now lets discuss how much relay 2 is worth. 1-2pts?

My issue isnt that jendons ability is overpowered, its that it only costs 5 pts more than the generic for two braces and a massive attack upgrade. That 5 point boost is worth 18-20pts alone...

31 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

If Relay got clobbered (or just toned down) we would just have to revert to Centicore.

Seriously though I don't think I've ever seen Centicore used - and if Relay was so overpowered wouldn't it be as common as Demolisher.

No. As a relay platform the lamda shuttle is considerably better than an arquittens. Its cheaper, and it has considerably more freedom of movement.

7 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Notice how you have strongly argued that Jendons doubletap ability is worth around 18-20pts.

Now lets discuss how much relay 2 is worth. 1-2pts?

My issue isnt that jendons ability is overpowered, its that it only costs 5 pts more than the generic for two braces and a massive attack upgrade. That 5 point boost is worth 18-20pts alone...

I've tried to argue that he's not better than many 20 point squadrons. Doubletaps have a really wide price range in this game. If your point is that he's a good squadron, and really cost efficient, I totally agree with you. If your point is that he's out of control and needs a nerf, my question is "where, and compared to what?" Because that's what it boils down to in the end.

2 hours ago, duck_bird said:

When your opponent puts 4 ships hugging the back wall while a blob of 134 points of squadrons flies towards you... Barring certain fleet types you may or may not have bought, it really limits your options.

...

But if you don't have those very specific tools.. then your best option is to deploy your entire fleet/squad ball as tight as possible and just try to be a rock the wave of squadrons breaks upon. It doesn't feel like there's much decision making to be had on either side and you're just rolling dice at each other.

Not sayin' anything, just sayin'...

I think I may have seen those complaints before. About, oh, around the 1920s? The complaints didn't really do anything better then, either...

If you aren't building a list capable of dealing with 134 pts of squadrons where their supporting ships have no interest in fighting the ship-to-ship battle you want to fight - well, that feels like a YP, not a MP.

EDIT: Oh, and, also, hilariously even more appropriate to the thread because it's the same exact sides arguing nearly a CENTURY ago (check the date on the comic)...

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Notice how you have strongly argued that Jendons doubletap ability is worth around 18-20pts.

Now lets discuss how much relay 2 is worth. 1-2pts?

My issue isnt that jendons ability is overpowered, its that it only costs 5 pts more than the generic for two braces and a massive attack upgrade. That 5 point boost is worth 18-20pts alone...

What do you think of the Mandalorian fighter and ace? Seems like the same problem. 3 points more for auto damage against Intel and Relay, and a higher chance to proc Assault.

8 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

What do you think of the Mandalorian fighter and ace? Seems like the same problem. 3 points more for auto damage against Intel and Relay, and a higher chance to proc Assault.

And a brace token. I think the Ace is worth it against some lists and not terrible against others. The regular Mando fighter is a bit expensive. Likewise Whisper is fair to good but Tie-Ps are mediocre.

The Rebels get some character love too. 7 more point for Jan to get 2 defence tokens, an extra die and probably the strongest special rule in the game - to lend out braces. Oh yes and Gold Squadron rocks for 2 more points.

I still think the biggest problem with relay is that flotillas are Squad 2. drop them to 1 and poof, flotilla squad activation fixed. 19 points for a 2 squad activation is crazytown, ignoring the fact that it's in addition to all the other benefits of having said squad pusher.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

Some stuff

I love squadrons in this game. Again I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I recently played two of these relay spam fleets in a row, and I did win both games.

My point is that they just weren't interesting games. I had to fly clumped up with my ships and squads as close together as possible, and pray my flak rolled better than their squads did. My fleet was speed 3, so I just COULDN'T reach his ships. I had to sit back and wait for his squad ball to come to me.

Like if you played much WHFB back in the day. There's always that guy who brings a dwarf army and deploys as tightly packed in the corner as possible, and won't move ALL game. He just rolls dice at you. It's beatable if your list has the tools to beat it. But it's a mindless matchup that basically comes down to whose artillery rolls better.

3 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Notice how you have strongly argued that Jendons doubletap ability is worth around 18-20pts.

Now lets discuss how much relay 2 is worth. 1-2pts?

My issue isnt that jendons ability is overpowered, its that it only costs 5 pts more than the generic for two braces and a massive attack upgrade. That 5 point boost is worth 18-20pts alone...

Jendon loses the ability to attack at all if he uses his ability, so it's not just a massive upgrade. There is a cost involved hence why he is only 5pts more.

What if FFG releases a new flotilla for each side that comes with a Fleet Support upgrade that prevents relay at distance 1 - 5 of your ship and has good AA. Just a thought, there might already be a counter to relay in the works.

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

Jendon loses the ability to attack at all if he uses his ability, so it's not just a massive upgrade. There is a cost involved hence why he is only 5pts more.

(2 Black vs Squads || 1 Blue vs Ships) < (whatever is best in a given situation)

Jendon can trigger most other squadrons in the game for a better attack than he can make on his own, be it against squads or ships. So it's hard to see his loss of attack as that much of a cost.

7 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Not just a different 20pt squad, the optimal 20pt squad at each opportunity.

Well they arent 20pts so thats a good start.

If you are against aces you dont want bossk (unless angry). If you are against ships then again bossk isnt great.

Why would you not want saber twice against aces and valen twice against generics for far cheaper...?

Saber's 6 blue die with FC / Howlrunner and additional attack from Jendon will murder most aces. I hate it when I go up against it because I know I'm losing someone right away.

12+6+15+20 to pull that off, the closest thing I can think of on Rebel side is Corran with Adar, 22+10+6, cheaper and if he remains engaged he can move away but also requires a 2nd activation.

3 hours ago, duck_bird said:

I love squadrons in this game. Again I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I recently played two of these relay spam fleets in a row, and I did win both games.

My point is that they just weren't interesting games. I had to fly clumped up with my ships and squads as close together as possible, and pray my flak rolled better than their squads did. My fleet was speed 3, so I just COULDN'T reach his ships. I had to sit back and wait for his squad ball to come to me.

Like if you played much WHFB back in the day. There's always that guy who brings a dwarf army and deploys as tightly packed in the corner as possible, and won't move ALL game. He just rolls dice at you. It's beatable if your list has the tools to beat it. But it's a mindless matchup that basically comes down to whose artillery rolls better.

Hey now, I have a Dwarf army down in the basement. What's wrong with lots of cannons and guns? They're dwarves! They don't really go anywhere quickly! ?

5 hours ago, duck_bird said:

I love squadrons in this game. Again I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I recently played two of these relay spam fleets in a row, and I did win both games.

My point is that they just weren't interesting games. I had to fly clumped up with my ships and squads as close together as possible, and pray my flak rolled better than their squads did. My fleet was speed 3, so I just COULDN'T reach his ships. I had to sit back and wait for his squad ball to come to me.

The same argument can be made about flotillas hiding in corners, they just aren't interesting. Relay helps counter that, if relay goes, do flotillas take a nerfing too, should they no longer count for the purpose of being tabled?

I don't actually think Relay is the problem even though it kind of has the same effect on Armada as 360 degree shooting and turrets had on X-Wing, in that, there is a core mechanic and this special rule effectively says "nevermind all that".

For example X-Wing is a game of hidden movement and dog fighting by trying to get people into your arcs while staying out of enemy arcs. This is a great mechanic, it gives the game depth and strategy. All of it is eliminated by 360 and the game basically becomes a "get close enough and manipulate the dice with upgrades", hence the common renaming of the game to Math-Wing. 360 degree shooting eliminated the need to worry about arcs, a core, fundamental element of gameplay.

Relay is the same thing to Armada. At its core Armada is a game of positioning, arcs and ranges. You have to plan ahead, make sure your strategy keeps you in the position and ranges you need to control your squads, protect your fleets, get people in your arcs etc.. Relay basically says "hey never mind range or positioning, now you can just control squads from anywhere". Adding insult to injury by making relay units some of the most durable and cheapest (point for value) units in the game.

This in its own right however is not really the defining breaking point, the fact that the cheap flotillas who have the side effect of giving you a huge activation advantage can leverage relay means that for 18 points you can both gain activation advantage and manage your squad list in one go.

So of course people are going to abuse this, in competitive play if your intention is to compete and win you would be down right stupid to not run a flotilla/relay spam list. And sure competitive play is not broken if everyone is running the same lists, it has a quasi balancing effect, but it doesn't really make for a particular interesting or fun design for a game of capital ship combat.

So yeah, relay needs to be nerfed, flotillas need to be nerfed and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that nerfs for both are coming. Its just a matter of time´ and I believe that when the nerf does come down its going to be "kill it all" hard. Like Flotillas and relay will be rendered completely useless as has been kind of the nerfing strategy for X-Wing and Armada so far. Rhymer balls owning it? killed it. Demolisher owning it? Kill it! They will nerf Relay and flotillas to oblivion.

I love the X-wing analogy. It’s gonna be hard to nerf flotillas. If literally the only thing a GR-75 did was activate ... for 18 points... people would absolutely still bring it, and many already do.

As for relay dominating competitive play... I’ve asked twice previously for evidence relay is competitively unbalanced, or even meaningfully involved in most competitive lists. Until someone can give even anecdotal evidence of relay warping even their casual meta, all this falls flat. Really anything more than “well, this one game...” or “look how scary it is on paper...” would at least be a great starting point.

@Baltanok Do you happen to have any regionals data on Relay use? If you do I’d much appreciate it (if not, that’s fine too. )

11 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

20pts for doubletapping a single squad which can reposition. Cheap but ok its about acceptable.

*cough* Adar Adar. And with Adar the squadron can even move two times, for only 10 points.

But yes, Jendon is really strong because of the combination (6 hull with two brace, relay 2, double attack for any squadron). I would love to see him with Strategic instead of relay. But just remove the Relay and keep the rest? Not really worth it anymore.

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

[...]

As for relay dominating competitive play... I’ve asked twice previously for evidence relay is competitively unbalanced, or even meaningfully involved in most competitive lists. Until someone can give even anecdotal evidence of relay warping even their casual meta, all this falls flat. Really anything more than “well, this one game...” or “look how scary it is on paper...” would at least be a great starting point.

[...]

German National Championship won by relay flotts

Australian National Championship won by relay flotts

Nordic National Championship won by relay flotts

European Championship won by relay flotts (runner up and one other of the the top 4 had relay flotts)

Last big international Vassal tournament won by relay flotts (runner up also had them)

This list is not meant to be complete. It were merely the ones that immediatelly came to my mind.

38 minutes ago, Darth Veggie said:

European Championship won by relay flotts (also runner up and one other of the the top 4 had relay flotts)

It was won with a squadron list. But not with relay (5x Tie Bomber, 4x Tie Fighter, Rhymer, Mauler, 2x Jumpmaster).

You can easy say that a lot of big tournaments (i would even say most) were won with squadron lists. But not all had relay.
Relay is just a bonus for a good squadron list, but not the other way around. Relay alone does not win the games.