Relay's effect states that "when a friendly ship resolves a (squadron) command, up to (x) of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1-3 of you." I'm sure many people think this ability is pretty absurd. When I initially read it, I thought the relay ship itself had to be within squadron command distance for the effect to trigger, but this isn't so. You can relay squadrons from anywhere on the board... This has a very negative synergy with flotillas, since they can issue squadron commands on the other side of the board while flying away from combat ships at full speed. This isn't fun and it defeats the purpose of needing to position squadron commanding ships intelligently.

The flavor and name of the ability "relay" also doesn't make sense given the ability. If I'm not in distance to give a squadron command to my "relay" squad, then can they even relay a squad command to other squadrons?

The simple solution to this problem is to dial back the effect of relay to make relay squadrons work more like a "boosted comms" tokens on the board. Make the relay squadron need to be in squadron command range of the commanding ship itself to activate relay, even if you don't necessarily activate the relay squadron. Also, make sure it doesn't stack with boosted comms itself, otherwise you'd still get ludicrous ranges. The whole point is to make kiting with relay not so effective, and force the ships to remain somewhere within the battle to keep using squads.

So instead, relay should read: "when a friendly ship resolves a (squadron) command, up to (x) of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1-3 of you, if you are in close-medium range of the ship resolving the squadron command."

This change has been discussed a lot and I don't think you'll find a meaningful number of people who disagree.

28 minutes ago, DerFurst said:

Relay's effect states that "when a friendly ship resolves a (squadron) command, up to (x) of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1-3 of you." I'm sure many people think this ability is pretty absurd. When I initially read it, I thought the relay ship itself had to be within squadron command distance for the effect to trigger, but this isn't so. You can relay squadrons from anywhere on the board... This has a very negative synergy with flotillas, since they can issue squadron commands on the other side of the board while flying away from combat ships at full speed. This isn't fun and it defeats the purpose of needing to position squadron commanding ships intelligently.

The flavor and name of the ability "relay" also doesn't make sense given the ability. If I'm not in distance to give a squadron command to my "relay" squad, then can they even relay a squad command to other squadrons?

The simple solution to this problem is to dial back the effect of relay to make relay squadrons work more like a "boosted comms" tokens on the board. Make the relay squadron need to be in squadron command range of the commanding ship itself to activate relay, even if you don't necessarily activate the relay squadron. Also, make sure it doesn't stack with boosted comms itself, otherwise you'd still get ludicrous ranges. The whole point is to make kiting with relay not so effective, and force the ships to remain somewhere within the battle to keep using squads.

So instead, relay should read: "when a friendly ship resolves a (squadron) command, up to (x) of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1-3 of you, if you are in close-medium range of the ship resolving the squadron command."

Why can't it stack with Boosted Comms?

38 minutes ago, DerFurst said:

Relay's effect states that "when a friendly ship resolves a (squadron) command, up to (x) of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1-3 of you." I'm sure many people think this ability is pretty absurd. When I initially read it, I thought the relay ship itself had to be within squadron command distance for the effect to trigger, but this isn't so. You can relay squadrons from anywhere on the board... This has a very negative synergy with flotillas, since they can issue squadron commands on the other side of the board while flying away from combat ships at full speed. This isn't fun and it defeats the purpose of needing to position squadron commanding ships intelligently.

The flavor and name of the ability "relay" also doesn't make sense given the ability. If I'm not in distance to give a squadron command to my "relay" squad, then can they even relay a squad command to other squadrons?

The simple solution to this problem is to dial back the effect of relay to make relay squadrons work more like a "boosted comms" tokens on the board. Make the relay squadron need to be in squadron command range of the commanding ship itself to activate relay, even if you don't necessarily activate the relay squadron. Also, make sure it doesn't stack with boosted comms itself, otherwise you'd still get ludicrous ranges. The whole point is to make kiting with relay not so effective, and force the ships to remain somewhere within the battle to keep using squads.

So instead, relay should read: "when a friendly ship resolves a (squadron) command, up to (x) of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1-3 of you, if you are in close-medium range of the ship resolving the squadron command."

I already said how this would benefit Boosted Coms. If I cannot stack it with Boosted Coms I won't use Relay never more.

7 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I already said how this would benefit Boosted Coms. If I cannot stack it with Boosted Coms I won't use Relay never more.

Relay is still competitive with BC in a lot of ways in this scenario though. It's a single investment that can apply increased activation range to multiple ships, so it still pairs well with the strategy of lots of little squadron activations. BC on all of them is better, but then you're also paying for BC on each ship, which makes it an interesting cost/benefit analysis instead of "why would I ever not choose Relay?". And if you really want to, you can invest in both.

16 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I already said how this would benefit Boosted Coms. If I cannot stack it with Boosted Coms I won't use Relay never more.

BC is and always will be superior to Relay for a simple reason. BC maintains the ships engagement throughout the game. Relay encourages disengagement. So if you send all your squads via Relay, I'll just flak them to death, which I've done and won games with. But it you have BC, I now have to choose between the carrier or the squads which makes your list much stronger. Plus BC encourages large alpha strikes.

Stacking with BC is literally the same problem, except you pay an extra 4 points to use it.

8 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Relay is still competitive with BC in a lot of ways in this scenario though. It's a single investment that can apply increased activation range to multiple ships, so it still pairs well with the strategy of lots of little squadron activations. BC on all of them is better, but then you're also paying for BC on each ship, which makes it an interesting cost/benefit analysis instead of "why would I ever not choose Relay?". And if you really want to, you can invest in both.

3 BC are still cheaper. I can imagine an scenario to take relay. Several ships without offensive retrofit. I am imperial. That's not an scenario I usually see myself.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

BC is and always will be superior to Relay for a simple reason. BC maintains the ships engagement throughout the game. Relay encourages disengagement. So if you send all your squads via Relay, I'll just flak them to death, which I've done and won games with. But it you have BC, I now have to choose between the carrier or the squads which makes your list much stronger. Plus BC encourages large alpha strikes.

Stacking with BC is literally the same problem, except you pay an extra 4 points to use it.

My point is just about the activation distance. If they cannot stack the difference of distances is really small while the points difference is huge.

I am not a relay abuser. I usually find an oportunity cost while considering it. I also see the weak points. I have hard times considering relay is broken.

11 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

BC is and always will be superior to Relay for a simple reason. BC maintains the ships engagement throughout the game. Relay encourages disengagement. So if you send all your squads via Relay, I'll just flak them to death, which I've done and won games with. But it you have BC, I now have to choose between the carrier or the squads which makes your list much stronger. Plus BC encourages large alpha strikes.

Stacking with BC is literally the same problem, except you pay an extra 4 points to use it.

That is exactly why I don't see it as a problem to allow the two to stack.

28 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

My point is just about the activation distance. If they cannot stack the difference of distances is really small while the points difference is huge.

I am not a relay abuser. I usually find an oportunity cost while considering it. I also see the weak points. I have hard times considering relay is broken.

In the danger of going against the masses,

I agree in every point,

Relay is useful while I wouldn’t Call it useful enough to base my complete squadron game around it

just my opinion

saying that i wouldn’t be very affected by changing it (stacking with BC) I would favor keeping it as original though

10 minutes ago, Captain_Nemo said:

In the danger of going against the masses,

I agree in every point,

Relay is useful while I wouldn’t Call it useful enough to base my complete squadron game around it

just my opinion

saying that i wouldn’t be very affected by changing it (stacking with BC) I would favor keeping it as original though

Or just reduce the relay distance.

1-3 is huge.

Due to cost, nerfing Relay affects Imperials more than Rebels (dual VCXs being an exception.) It feels like in the end, overall, we’re arguing the Imperial squadron approach needs a nerf compared to the Rebel one. I’m not going to derail the thread by discussing Rebel squadron support, but consider what the Empire doesn’t have, and whether this would be good for squadron balance in the big picture. Are Lambda lists cleaning up anywhere? I’m genuinely curious.

49 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

3 BC are still cheaper.

Of course it is, but you also get 6 hull, some pew pews, and Strategic for that. Which is what makes it an interesting decision.

Taking a Lambda just for Relay? Yeah, take BC instead.

Got extra squadron points and want to play some Strategic objectives too? Go for the Lambda.

I have not had any problems with relay as is, if you send in your squdrons without ship support, you put your squdrons at a significant disadvantage in the Squadron game. I'll have my squdrons plus ship flack you just have your squdrons if you're not coming in to engage me well I'll clean up your squdrons. If you didn't plan to deal with squdrons in your list aside from blow up the carrier you will suffer, but you should always have means to deal with squdrons in some way. I kinda like relay it makes players play the fleet game, in the early life of Armada it was all about the capital ships no squdrons, then we had a stage of crazy squdron and forget the big capital ships, but with some errata things have toned down and with this next wave I think we will see the game Armada was always ment to be a game about fleet battles of squdrons and capital ships working together to make a Fleet armda is not about capital ships or about squdrons it's about both it's about fleets.

If this change were to be made, I think the relay ships themselves would need to change. Like the VCX would need to become relay 2 at least, and the shuttle could become relay 3? I guess?

If its just a way to extend the ships bubble and not remote like it is now, then the relay craft have to be sitting alone as as stepping stone. Or a some stuff has to stay back protecting them, making the strategy weaker.

When relay was first teased and it was thought that it would be like a stepping stone, I wasn't going to ever use it. The hassle of keeping the relay ships within the bubble of the commanding ship to send out the other squads 1 or 2 at at time was way too much.

I'm confused why relay is such the issue. People are very against the 3 flotilla off in the corner commanding the squads over in the fight because it's so strong. If it's strong, then the meta becomes the 3 flotilla in the corner.. so the counter meta is like a couple raiders or MC30 that whip over to them and kill them. Sure, it might cost you more in points of raiders to kill the 3 flotilla.. but then you also neuter his 100+ points of squads.

Is the real problem with Relay that there's no consistent way to kill 3 flotilla?

No one has any issues killing flotillas. They have problems killing flotillas in a point efficient manner and fast enough to be worth it. Relay exacerbates the issue, by allowing flotillas to meaningfully contribute via squadron commands and activations while incurring no real risk.

As a community, we’ve reached something of a consensus that it bears addressing of some kind. The fix proposed in this thread, that the relay squadron need be in activation range is one. That flotillas not count towards staving off a tabling is the other. I personally prefer the latter. I dont think relay would be such an issue if you werent risking a tabling by losing a single combat ship, regardless of what kind of technological terror you’ve constructed.

3 hours ago, Snipafist said:

This change has been discussed a lot and I don't think you'll find a meaningful number of people who disagree.

Well, aside from people who enjoy the squadron game.

Seems kinda like many of the 'relay needs a nerf because it breaks the game' people would be pretty happy just deleting squadrons from the game, entirely, which...just, no.

I'm not too fussed by Relay as it stands. Lists that use (or abuse) it very effectively usually have over 100 points of squadrons and they inflict a lot of the damage. Nothing wrong with this and bomber lists are a thing. If you take 1 or 2 Lamdas as part of your fighter force you sacrifice some anti squadron or bomber firepower to get the relay flexibility.

Relay also adds a link in the chain that can be attacked. A strong fighter force should have some Intel and some anti squadron power and maybe some escort to protect the Intel. Then you add in some relay which means you could be attacked there. Your 2 Tie-Advanced may not be able to protect Dengar and your Lamdas. I have faced Imperials with some Gozantis who used Relay to get the Tie-Ds to do their thing. I had a strongish fighter force and was able to kill the shuttles and saw the flotillas fly off into the corner leaving the fighters uncontrolled.

3 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Well, aside from people who enjoy the squadron game.

Seems kinda like many of the 'relay needs a nerf because it breaks the game' people would be pretty happy just deleting squadrons from the game, entirely, which...just, no.

That's a ridiculous claim.

I have no sympathy at all for the extremist views of the "I hate that squadrons exist" cohort, and neither do most people on the forums. Lots of people are calling for a Relay nerf and that includes people like @Green Knight , who has been winning tournaments with a 1+4 Sloane fleet that ab uses Relay.

I’m also Squadron Positive and think relay is needs adjustment.

Also, like the Rieekan aces fleets before it, my largest concern lies less with Relay alone, but what relay enables and the way it synergizes with flote bloat.

2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

That's a ridiculous claim.

I have no sympathy at all for the extremist views of the "I hate that squadrons exist" cohort, and neither do most people on the forums. Lots of people are calling for a Relay nerf and that includes people like @Green Knight , who has been winning tournaments with a 1+4 Sloane fleet that ab uses Relay.

You disagree that the "I hate that squadrons exist" group and "relay broke the game" group do not have an awful lot of overlap? I didn't say it was absolute overlap, just that many of the one group were also making up the other. (And, notably, the OP suggestion of limiting the relay squadron to the activation range of the parent ship - that specific suggestion tends to be favored most heavily by the anti-squadron group, given it - well, as the OP states " The whole point is to make kiting with relay not so effective, and force the ships to remain somewhere within the battle to keep using squads. "...IE., they don't like the idea of a squadron-on-squadron game, and want to force the game to be ship-on-ship 100% of the time).

I think that's one of the reasons that the "flotillas don't count for tabling" suggestion gets more traction - because the problem isn't squadrons... not even relay squadrons (unless your problem is "squadrons exist at all", anyway), but rather the ridiculously inflated value it gives to already-undervalued flotillas. So it directly addresses the FLOTILLA problem, and if it simultaneously weakens relay...well, whatever, it weakens one of the more extreme interactions of relay, that isn't the fault of relay itself so much as the ridiculousness of flotillas in general.

But "I want ships to always be forced into the battle", as the OP suggests? Yeah, that's pure 'I want a game without squadrons' argument, that is.

10 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

That's a ridiculous claim.

I have no sympathy at all for the extremist views of the "I hate that squadrons exist" cohort, and neither do most people on the forums. Lots of people are calling for a Relay nerf and that includes people like @Green Knight , who has been winning tournaments with a 1+4 Sloane fleet that ab uses Relay.

I love squads.

I hate flotillas and relay.

Doesn't make me NOT abuse it.

I am ok with Jendon losing relay ability.

I also think its worth noting that even if you completely torched relay, the squads that have it would all still see the table for strategic.

Or to double tap Steele.

15pts for strategic and relay. Seems fair to me.

62pts to doubletap two squadrons which cant reposition. Yeah that seems ok.

20pts for doubletapping a single squad which can reposition. Cheap but ok its about acceptable.

20pts to doubletap and relay2? You are having a fecking laugh.