Well, Harpoon card is a ******* winner :

- undercosted/OP -sufficiently enought to turn the other missiles obsolete in most situations-
- clunky condition mechanic
- totally incoherent effect -harpoon weapon doing more average damage than its explosive counterparts-
- fluffwise inexistant -I don't remeber seing those things in Star Wars, even in the worst video games or comic books-

So yeah; OP is right, no need to nerf the card. Just get rid of that ****, period.

10 hours ago, Marinealver said:

No Nerfs is not exactly my goal. Nothing but Nerfs is what I am vehemently against and my goal is to put an end to that attitude. Through the course of balance erratas we have received one quality of life errata and that was the Heavy Scyk title when it was getting a repaint in the C-Roc. So now old stuff won't get a boost unless it is about to be sold again in some fashion, but anything that was good from previously will get downgraded to make room for new stuff. It removes the accessibility the game X-wing once had. Don't buy the ships you see in the movies, those are now bad instead get only from the latest wave. That can't be new player friendly who would want to try their favorite ship they saw from the movie only to see it die to a ship they never even heard of.

I agree with your point here very strongly. Unfortunately FFG as a business needs to keep pushing product so that is what happens. People will get sick of aces packs on top of aces packs for the same ship so new releases are new ships. But now we are at a point where the releases are so obscure it isn't recognisable as star wars sometimes but has that new upgrade that is a must have so people buy multiples of it anyway. Add to that the rate they have been coming out and it becomes an overwhelming mess. I have used exactly 4 ships that have come out post wave 4 (Ghost, Phantom, Phantom II and TIE Punisher, but will try a gunboat soon) and my wife has been saying for some time it is far too confusing and doesn't like it as she can't keep up even with our relatively small collection. This may be a different debate, however.

More on point I also agree with whoever it was that said that if the point of this Harpoon card was to make fixed-arc small ships relevant again, bringing out a must have card like this was the wrong way to do it. I don't know what is or what should be done about this upgrade - I am generally against arbitrarily re-writing how cards work. (disclaimer - I don't own it, not owning any scum ships, and haven't come up against it yet). It does occur to me tho that in a healthy, truly balanced game there would never be a clear choice like this is being made out to be by some parts of the community. There should be many options that should be equally as effectively in their particular situation that you can adapt a play style to, not one all purpose take every time upgrade.

I do wonder tho, what effect have all these drastic changes actually had? For example to X7 and Palpatine, I prefer TIE/D anyway and the last time I came up against the Emperor my opponent called crits on me quite happily, never seeming to regret his decision and soundly beat me. Also in all my games since starting soon after wave 3 came out I have never flown Biggs and have come up against him maybe 3 times. Then what would actually happen now if all the errata were removed and the cards reset back to their original state (keeping any clarifications tho)? Are there so many super powerful options that there is more variety than ever before?? But that again may be a debate for another place.

Oh oh ohhhhh! Idea!

Make the Harpooned! Condition card only work on small base ships with 4+ Hull(maybe 5+ hull) and Large Base ships.

1) More thematic. Harpooning a flimsy TIE is probably less likely for the Harpoon to stay in. Probably goes right through the wing instead. That harpoon is more likely to stick into a bigger hull!

2) Fixes the mass splash damage onto TIE Swarms issue.

3) Fixes the inherant problem with "free damage" where it hurts Agility defended ships much more than Hull Defended ships (1 hull is worth more pts, etc).

I like this idea because it stays true to the "super fluff" aspect of the Condition.

5+ might actually work.
K-Wings, Gunships and Scourge Bombers are still in and so are Y-Wings, B-Wings and U-Wings are already out, the YTs are in and protectorate fighters are out. Overall it seems to work.
Alas, why are we making suggestions for nerfs into the void like a bunch of air guitar players?

What anyone things that could work or not work is rather irrelevant. What is relevant how the game is.

5 hull regardless of base size makes the most sense to me. It's simple, all of the light and medium fighters are unaffected, and every single large base ship except the Aggressor falls into that metric (which I'm fine with, they're not exactly tearing up the tables in most cases). 4 hull catches too many things like the Silencer, Starviper, Kihraxz, and the poor poor Hawk that have that much hull not because they're heavily armored ships but because they have lowered shield values than their contemporaries.

Well, I guess we can continue to kick dust into the TIE Punisher's face with the 5+ hull ruling.
But really, I do not think a change to the condition is sufficient. Even with this change, its still the best ordnance 4 Attack Dice + Rerolls from the target lock. I think the cost of the card also needs to increase to at least 5 to be on par with homing missiles. Or just remove the TL when firing like pretty much every other ordnance in the game.

The problem with that, and the point of the whole thread, is that harpoons base power level is about where it needs to be. Is it the best missile by a wide margin? Yes, absolutely. Is it making arcs/range matter again both directly and indirectly which is a net positive for the meta? Again, yes.

Other ordnance sucks not only relatively when compared to harpoons but for the most part in an absolute sense as well. But that's a separate concern from how harpoons fit into the overall meta and one of those things matters quite a bit more than the other.

8 minutes ago, Makaze said:

The problem with that, and the point of the whole thread, is that harpoons base power level is about where it needs to be. Is it the best missile by a wide margin? Yes, absolutely. Is it making arcs/range matter again both directly and indirectly which is a net positive for the meta? Again, yes.

I know this is intended as a defense of Harpoon Missiles. You know what it could also be read as?

... A condemnation of arc-constrained primary weapons. Seriously, we might as well errata 80-degree arc-constrained primary weapons to be +1 attack die.

If Harpoon Missiles are genuinely so good for the game (and note that I am not staking a position on that!), then there is something wrong with the game. I think a lot of people will agree with that; but then it is not good for the game to plaster over that problem with Harpoon Missiles spam ... both in play and in written defenses of the upgrade.

If Harpoon Missiles is the treatment for the symptoms, then the game is hopelessly diseased.

Burn it all down! X-Wing 2.0!

42 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Is it making arcs/range matter again both directly and indirectly which is a net positive for the meta? Again, yes.

No, harpoons do not make 'arcs/range matter again'. That is an absurd statement. The list that won worlds last year NEEDED ARC to shoot their torps and of course Denger needed his arc in order to double tap. Oh and the 2nd place in worlds all 3 ships needed arc as well. This whole make arcs again slogen is just childish and has no basis for what's really happening in x-wing.

55 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I know this is intended as a defense of Harpoon Missiles. You know what it could also be read as?

... A condemnation of arc-constrained primary weapons. Seriously, we might as well errata 80-degree arc-constrained primary weapons to be +1 attack die.

If Harpoon Missiles are genuinely so good for the game (and note that I am not staking a position on that!), then there is something wrong with the game. I think a lot of people will agree with that; but then it is not good for the game to plaster over that problem with Harpoon Missiles spam ... both in play and in written defenses of the upgrade.

If Harpoon Missiles is the treatment for the symptoms, then the game is hopelessly diseased.

Burn it all down! X-Wing 2.0!

I'm actually kind of in agreement with you. Harpoons are a bandaid, one that I'm not even sure was wholly thought through or intentional. Also one that comes with its own set of issues. They're not quite on the order of +1 primary red since for as good as they are they still require a TL (or EPT + F), proper range, and a limited number/frequency of shots. But yeah, overall they're buffing 80 degree red dice (while adding other restrictions that can be played around and exploited in interesting ways) to the point that it probably has always needed to be when compared to the efficiency of PWTs and TLTs.

I'd love for 2.0 to happen, the game has some real structural issues that can't be solved by title cards or errata alone. But... until it does happen then there's no reason to go pulling off the bandaid. Especially not just because there's a pile of inferior bandaids over there in the corner

6 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

No, harpoons do not make 'arcs/range matter again'. That is an absurd statement. The list that won worlds last year NEEDED ARC to shoot their torps and of course Denger needed his arc in order to double tap. Oh and the 2nd place in worlds all 3 ships needed arc as well. This whole make arcs again slogen is just childish and has no basis for what's really happening in x-wing.

The J5k is was so successful precisely because it had a PWT to finish people off after it spent the torps and so aces that used their actions to arc dodge it were punished for their naked green dice.

Doubly so for Dengar. Don't want to be in my arc? I'm pretty cool with you boost/BRing out of my arc cause now you get to eat 3-4 fully modified dice vs your 3 naked ones. Who actually needs a return shot when the mere threat of it is enough to compromise both your offense and defense by making you waste your actions to prevent it?

And 2nd place had a turreted bombing Miranda... and Biggs...

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

The J5k is was so successful precisely because it had a PWT to finish people off after it spent the torps and so aces that used their actions to arc dodge it were punished for their naked green dice.

Doubly so for Dengar. Don't want to be in my arc? I'm pretty cool with you boost/BRing out of my arc cause now you get to eat 3-4 fully modified dice vs your 3 naked ones. Who actually needs a return shot when the mere threat of it is enough to compromise both your offense and defense by making you waste your actions to prevent it?

And 2nd place had a turreted bombing Miranda... and Biggs...

2nd place had Miranda with Plasma Torps. But you clearly don't think arcs matter when considering the ordnance on both of their lists. LOL. Both #1 and #2 needed arcs for their list to be effective.

3 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

2nd place had Miranda with Plasma Torps. But you clearly don't think arcs matter when considering the ordnance on both of their lists. LOL. Both #1 and #2 needed arcs for their list to be effective.

Nah, he has a fair point about the turrets being the strength of the list. The arcs on those plasmas, torps, abilities matter sure, that is a reason why those list were and are still fun to fly imho. But reliable out of arc damage is the key why those lists were such power houses. You did not get the shot you wanted? Poor you, here do two damage instead.

Though to be fair, this applies to the punishing one and TLTs, but much less to the torp boats in general, because imho 2 dice PWTs are don't have the firepower to be a problem. Arc dodgers come with their patented autothrusters and against the rest a two dice attack to keep at least some damage on the target (and keep the games not overly long) seems like a good idea. Now players really, really hated that little extra damage still, which was one of the reasons everyone was ******* to no end about the jumpmasters. Alas I don't think that their PWT mattered that much indeed. Still TLTS and 3 dice attacks, especially fully modded ones are an completely different topic. And TLTs combined with miranda regen ... yeah, because that plasma was not just a gimmick of the list to get some use out of leftover points. ;-)

Nand Torf - 100 points

• Miranda Doni (44) - K-Wing
  Autoblaster Turret (2), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Rey (2), Cluster Mines (4), Ion Bombs (2), Guidance Chips (0)

• Biggs Darklighter (26) - X-Wing
  R4-D6 (1), Integrated Astromech (0)

• Jess Pava (30) - T-70 X-Wing
  M9-G8 (3), Pattern Analyzer (2), Integrated Astromech (0)

2 of the 3 ships here have nothing but arc. Miranda needs arc to shoot her plasma. Sure she has a 2 dice turret and a range 1 turret so she can still do some damage even out of arc. But her main job is to joust along with her arc only friends. Shoot past and bomb them on the way past.

Justin Phua - 98 points (Winner)

• Dengar (58) - JumpMaster 5000
  Expertise (4), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), K4 Security Droid (3), Unhinged Astromech (1), Punishing One (12), Guidance Chips (0)

• Tel Trevura (40) - JumpMaster 5000
  Veteran Instincts (1), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), K4 Security Droid (3), Unhinged Astromech(1), Guidance Chips (0)

His opening is a joust which requires arc. He wants to shoot his torps again and also to double tap with Dengar. Arcs mattered ALOT for his list and #2 list.
I really cannot believe people think otherwise.

Lets look at the 2017 New Zealand Nationals - its after the big FAQ:

Winner: Paul Johnson

• Assaj - Latts Razzi and PTL
• Thweek - both titles, FCS and Autothrusters
• Contracted Scout - Trick Shot, Rigged Cargo and Intel Agent

Runner Up

• Darth Vader - VI, Title, ATC, Engine
• Quickdraw - VI, Title, FCS, LWF, Pattern Analyzer
• OGP - Palp, Collision Detector

Interesting, no ordance but 4 out of the 6 ships have arc only.

9 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

His opening is a joust which requires arc. He wants to shoot his torps again and also to double tap with Dengar. Arcs mattered ALOT for his list and #2 list.
I really cannot believe people think otherwise.

And I can't believe of your inability to think about that list beyond turn 3. Imagine I bomb to your bus. The detonator will trigger via a tachometer once you drive slower than 60 miles. Speed will matter a lot to you and you are doing a fine job to keep that speed up. Then I push trigger on a remote detonator and the bomb blows up regardless. That's that fully modified 3 dice primary weapon attack on dengar. And it sounds like you could make a fun movie out of it too. ;-)

Just because the arc matters for those ships does not mean that being able to do reliable damage outside of arc is irrelevant. Claiming otherwise highly illogical.

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

And I can't believe of your inability to think about that list beyond turn 3. Imagine I bomb to your bus. The detonator will trigger via a tachometer once you drive slower than 60 miles. Speed will matter a lot to you and you are doing a fine job to keep that speed up. Then I push trigger on a remote detonator and the bomb blows up regardless. That's that fully modified 3 dice primary weapon attack on dengar. And it sounds like you could make a fun movie out of it too. ;-)

Just because the arc matters for those ships does not mean that being able to do reliable damage outside of arc is irrelevant. Claiming otherwise highly illogical.

Darth Vader, Quickdraw, Lamba, yep all of those can do zero damage outside of arc. Same for star viper, same for biggs and jess. LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/iTtbv4GL_zA

None of the ships has a turret. ONly 1 has cluster missiles. Only 1 has a mobile firing arc. LOL. Making arcs good again rubbish ...

At what point did anyone say that arcs were completely and utterly irrelevant? That's a strawman you're propping up.

Both of the worlds lists were happy to have a target in arc, no one is arguing otherwise. Both were also pretty happy to get arc dodged if it cost you actions, the K-wing ABed and bombed you to death while the J5Ks PWTed and blocked you next turn. As for the rest... frankly Biggs was there to die and make sure Miranda didn't get alpha'd off the board, of those ships only Jess really needs arc. So the point isn't that arcs didn't change the way the lists played or their offensive capability. Rather it's that they had sufficient tools both in and out of arc to the point that as long as it costs the opponent sufficient actions to get out of arc, thus cutting their offense and defense, then they still came out on top.

Not to mention they wanted you in arc because they had ordnance so thanks for backing me up on the premise that good ordnance makes arcs matter

On 1/29/2018 at 12:11 PM, Ailowynn said:

I’m with the Krayts on this one. Yes, Harpoons are power creep and they’re rules creep; but their effect on the meta has been overwhelmingly positive. You think Gunboats would be top tier competitive without Harpoons? Would we even see Kimogilas? How about all those Imperial aces that have started making cuts consistently? Harpoons are putting small based, arced ships back in the game. That means arcs matter, and that means decisions matter. Only place where I see them as an issue is Nymranda, but that squad would be an issue regardless; it’s a price I’m willing to pay.

Just take a moment to think—what would the meta look like without these harpoon squads? It would be a bunch of Nymranda, fortressing Ghosts, and timewalk Asajj; and that’s it. I can’t think of another meta list right now that doesn’t rely on Poons. Stop with the nerf herding, folks. This is a good card.

Harpoon Missiles are one of the dumbest ideas for ordnance I have ever heard. They just plain do not make sense. From a "fluff" sense and from a "game" sense. Just dumb.

I also object to the idea that anything new must have an impact on the current meta - either just to change things up or, more frequently it seems, to correct some perceived defect or OP combination. All these attempts inevitably create future problems and make obsolete popular ships/pilots from earlier waves. The end result... the relative balance of ships in the game do not match up with SW lore or cannon, and the power creep gains increasing momentum. All of this to sell new product (which makes sense for FFG) and to placate the small minority of players who are the competitive players who even care about "meta" (which, IMO, is not that good for the game in general.

Please just slow the roll-out of new product, and just produce good, quality products that "make sense", if nothing else.

That's my two cents (since you asked).

6 minutes ago, Makaze said:

At what point did anyone say that arcs were completely and utterly irrelevant? That's a strawman you're propping up.

Have you read this thread?

Lets just trash your strawman argument, shall we?

tvboy wrote (in this thread)

Quote

FFG clearly wanted to make arcs matter in high level play again,

MalusCalibur wrote (in this thread)

Quote

The fact that they 'keep arcs relevant' is a poor argument for not doing something about them and more of an indicator of overall problems with the game.

Ailowynn wrote (in this thread) (op of this post and is in the very first post)

Quote

Harpoons are putting small based, arced ships back in the game. That means arcs matter,

Favoritism Flight Games Wrote (in this thread)

Quote

I'm with OP- they're making arcs matter again, and the meta is the most diverse it's been in ages.

Kdubb (in this thread)

Quote

Ideally, EVERY 80 degree arc attack would matter, not just harpoon attacks.

Sekac wrote (in this thread)

Quote

So yeah, it's great that harpoons make arcs matter, but single-handedly erasing an entire squad archetype is not worth the cost.

And I am tired of going through this thread. I have proven my statement is not a strawman. Please retract your statement and apologise. Thank you.

1 hour ago, Rexler Brath said:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/iTtbv4GL_zA

None of the ships has a turret. ONly 1 has cluster missiles. Only 1 has a mobile firing arc. LOL. Making arcs good again rubbish ...

...a 22 person store champ in the boonies of Georgia. Yeah... you go ahead and hang your argument on that

But hey, keep cherry picking finals and taking them out of context by ignoring the location, size, and composition of the events as well as completely missing the point that harpoons are part of what are enabling things like Palp aces and other arc based ships without harpoons that you keep raving about to make a comeback

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person 1 asserts proposition X.
2. Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, falsely, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.

Allllll those people you just quoted are asserting that 80 degree arcs have mattered less, in a relative fashion, when compared to 360 arcs lately and that the presence of harpoons increases the importance the 80 arc, again in a relative fashion. None of them were making the superficially similar assertion that arcs don't matter at all. If you don't see that then you're being deliberately obtuse.

38 minutes ago, Makaze said:

At what point did anyone say that arcs were completely and utterly irrelevant?

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person 1 asserts proposition X.
2. Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, falsely, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.

Allllll those people you just quoted are asserting that 80 degree arcs have mattered less, in a relative fashion, when compared to 360 arcs lately and that the presence of harpoons increases the importance the 80 arc, again in a relative fashion. None of them were making the superficially similar assertion that arcs don't matter at all. If you don't see that then you're being deliberately obtuse.

At what point did I ever say that arcs were completely and utterly irrelevant? You used a strawman accusing me of strawmanning. LOL. No apology yet, I am done with communicating with you. If you ever come to your senses and apologise, than we can continue discourse.

LUL How do you arc dodge a SLAM attack? Good luck, better try higher PS and large base maneuvering.