Would something like this work well?

15 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Let’s not call it a challenge. Since I’d be unable to live up to a return: I can’t do tournaments right now due to life issues.

Vessery are QD are definitely in the top for non harpoon ships for empire. They’re pretty good. QD being perhaps top 1. But if they don’t have harpoons they do satisfy the requirements.

It would also be wise to note if you find that other builds would be simply more effective. And if these lists are suboptimal in the grand scheme.

Also note that you may get very different mileage out of different dash poe builds. I run poe with r2-d2 intensity and dash with Vi and Rey. Plus a 2 point bid. This makes it difficult for ps8 inq to avoid being shot. Generally I play a bit more conservative until late game to preserve health on dash.

Id like to see your results if you undertake this.

Fair enough.

I was thinking about the more common Lone Wolf version of Dash. The VI version is a little more tricky, but not insurmountable.

I'll post results after this weekend and try to be objective about match ups. There are gonna be ones (like versus Ghosts) where I will miss not having Harpoons, but I still think defeating them is doable.

Disclaimer: I consider myself a decent to good player, not a great one. Some losses will likely be chalked up to the other player just being better.

OP's talk of making arcs relevant again just proves how broken the game state is... For 80 degree arc ships to matter they have to be firing four-dice, double modified attacks, that deny range 3 bonus. Riiiiiight....

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

Not if the Nerf Herders get their way.

I still blame FFG for this Nerf Everything culture as that is the precedent they have set with many errata based F.A.Q.s. A Nerf is an abstract negative, you are taking away without giving anything back and it only benefits the premier competitive players. When FFG releases a series of balance erratas without giving any quality of life they have set the tone that the only way to fix the meta is to nerf anything and everything that wins.

So now if you lose it is not your fault, your opponent was paying an overpowered list. Those on the top 8, they are noobs playing broken ships/pilots/upgrades. I'm not a bad player the meta doesn't accommodate my play-style and I don't need to adapt to it.

There is literally NOBODY on these forums more obsessed with nerfing and nerf culture than you, you do realize that right?

I get that you're doing ironically, but wherever you go, the nerf conversation is sure to follow.

You can blame FFG if you want, but if you want the nerf culture to go away, would recommend not being the #1 (by a long, long, looong shot) perpetuator of the conversation.

The conversation can't and won't die as long as you guarantee its continuance.

18 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Them being better than concussion missiles is not the problem. They are better than cruise missiles,just from the previous wave. Which were also the best missiles when they came out.

I'm not convinced that they are better than Concussion Missiles 100% of the time. There are plenty of time in which they are, but I don't think always.

Having built-in Guidance Chips in a missile is not bad, and Concussion Missiles don't blow up in your face. @blairbunkeeven commented recently about if he had taken Concussion Misses on that Z-95 list of his it might have been better.

100% don't need harpoons in a list to win consistently with arcs. Git gud.

\

Also this is now my 3rd favorite thread of all time.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Cruise Missiles and Homing Missiles are still super effective.

I think that’s kind of his point though.

Cruise are good and at least have the 5 die potential, but in all other aspects they are inferior.

And Homing are good, but are more expensive and their additional effect is at least debatable as to being better or worse than that of Harpoons.

If Harpoons don’t exist, we probably still see these two missiles, and much more frequently.

concussions could even see some play, but given the force a target lock spend, no matter how accurate they are, it’s much more worth it to take Harpoons which give a condition and even have a strong possibility of letting you keep your target lock after the shot.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

The thing is, cruise missiles were already doing a perfectly fine job of this before they very quickly went from the best missile to obsolete due to the release of harpoons.

As long as harpoons go un-nerfed swarms are never, ever coming back.

So yeah, it's great that harpoons make arcs matter, but single-handedly erasing an entire squad archetype is not worth the cost.

Harpoons are stupid and bad for the game.

List of things that stand a decent chance of soloing a TIE swarm, sans Harpoons, includes Nym, Miranda, Kylo, Dash, maybe even Poe...with support, Wookiees and Fenn also crush them. The swarm is dead, has been for a while, and the amount of buff it to competitive is...borderline absurd. Harpoons don’t help, but they don’t really hurt.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

would much rather have Outmanuever just be a standard rule, just with using the attacker's and defender's primary firing arc

this way everyone's arc matters, not just those select few that get to use poons

Always like the idea in concept, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it would just make the game devolve into jousting. How does an ace hit and run at -1 agi? But that’s off topic.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

I've got a better solution: nerf the crap outta everything that we already know is too powerful

Which is easier, one card or a whole page of pen and ink changes? X-Wing is broken as ****. Has been since like...JumpMaster Wave, at least. There’s too many cards in the game to return to that state.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Still doesn't mean the Harpoons are the only thing keeping Imps afloat. Just because they are the obvious answer doesn't mean they are the only answer.

They’re a big part of it. Keep in mind, it’s not just Imperial lists that rely on them that are doing well; it’s Imperial lists that rely on everyone else relying on them. If there are more arced ships, arc-dodgers are viable.

Re: them being too powerful compared to other missiles...choice is good. So which is better, ships like Kimo and Gunboat being DOA, or those ships having no choice for their missile slot? Which gives more choices?

Would’ve agreed with all y’all a month or two ago, but the meta we’ve seen has been fun and diverse. Don’t want to see that messed up.

1 minute ago, Kdubb said:

Cruise are good and at least have the 5 die potential, but in all other aspects they are inferior.

They are not inferior to harpoon missiles. Why do people keep saying that?

They are easier then cruise missiles absolutely. But they aren't straight better. No way.

Show me a 98 or 97 pt Fenn or Poe list

And ill show you a list thats 100% easier to beat with Cruise Missiles.

There's never been a credible reason to want them nerfed.

I'll call for nerfs when they're needed, but the harpoon thing has been led by crybabies pretty much from the outset.

They're a key part of an enjoyable and varied metagame.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

They are not inferior to harpoon missiles. Why do people keep saying that?

They are easier then cruise missiles absolutely. But they aren't straight better. No way.

Show me a 98 or 97 pt Fenn or Poe list

And ill show you a list thats 100% easier to beat with Cruise Missiles.

Perhaps more apropriately, I should have said they were equal (as opposed to cruise inferior) in all things except the cruises 5 die potential and Harpoons condition.

I put a lot more weight on the condition myself, but I can at least see reason for someone feeling Cruise are of equatable value. I know I certainly don’t question it’s inclusion in a list as much as I would the rest of the non harpoon missiles.

1 minute ago, Ailowynn said:

List of things that stand a decent chance of soloing a TIE swarm, sans Harpoons, includes Nym, Miranda, Kylo, Dash, maybe even Poe...with support, Wookiees and Fenn also crush them. The swarm is dead, has been for a while, and the amount of buff it to competitive is...borderline absurd. Harpoons don’t help, but they don’t really hurt.

Always like the idea in concept, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it would just make the game devolve into jousting. How does an ace hit and run at -1 agi? But that’s off topic.

Which is easier, one card or a whole page of pen and ink changes? X-Wing is broken as ****. Has been since like...JumpMaster Wave, at least. There’s too many cards in the game to return to that state.

They’re a big part of it. Keep in mind, it’s not just Imperial lists that rely on them that are doing well; it’s Imperial lists that rely on everyone else relying on them. If there are more arced ships, arc-dodgers are viable.

Re: them being too powerful compared to other missiles...choice is good. So which is better, ships like Kimo and Gunboat being DOA, or those ships having no choice for their missile slot? Which gives more choices?

Would’ve agreed with all y’all a month or two ago, but the meta we’ve seen has been fun and diverse. Don’t want to see that messed up.

I'm not saying that Harpoons are not beneficial to the Empire. However, they are not the only reason we still see Imperial lists. If you check out the Regionals results page, you will still see a good number of non-Harpoon Imperial lists make cuts, even outperforming their Harpooning brethren in a couple of cases. Now, I don't know the ratio of non-harpoon and harpoon lists making cut and wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out harpoon lists are the majority. But there are still lists out there that are leaving their whaling gear at home and still doing well.

Just now, SabineKey said:

I'm not saying that Harpoons are not beneficial to the Empire. However, they are not the only reason we still see Imperial lists. If you check out the Regionals results page, you will still see a good number of non-Harpoon Imperial lists make cuts, even outperforming their Harpooning brethren in a couple of cases. Now, I don't know the ratio of non-harpoon and harpoon lists making cut and wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out harpoon lists are the majority. But there are still lists out there that are leaving their whaling gear at home and still doing well.

I think the argument is more that Harpoons bring life to arc dodgers dodging the arcs of would be Harpoons as much as they bring life to 80 degree arcs for ships that can fire multiple missiles.

I think the biggest reason people want Harpoons nerfed is because they are power creep over the other missiles.

If you were to change Harpoons it wouldn't be right to remove the condition from them, because that is thematically what makes them Harpoons. Just have them burn the TL. Right now they are Homing Harpoons not Harpoons.

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

Perhaps more apropriately, I should have said they were equal (as opposed to cruise inferior) in all things except the cruises 5 die potential and Harpoons condition.

I put a lot more weight on the condition myself, but I can at least see reason for someone feeling Cruise are of equatable value. I know I certainly don’t question it’s inclusion in a list as much as I would the rest of the non harpoon missiles.

Thats what im getting at. I absolutely understand that they are the best and easiest to use missile on paper.

Still they cost 4 points which means most lists that take them are giving up something really really important somewhere else. Could be a bid, could be a critical modification for defense or mobility or it could be a downgraded pilot. I don't think they are the best for every list or even the best option to deal with the majority of the meta right now. I think the fact that everyone "thinks" they need Harpoon missiles is the reason why Fenn and Poe just ran riot at regionals this weekend. People are not placing enough value on other options or other aspects of list building that matter more as usual.

Also....random palp shuttle related meme because Pew Pew Pew X-Wing is fun! Why do so few people use Palpatine?

39 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Them being better than concussion missiles is not the problem. They are better than cruise missiles,just from the previous wave. Which were also the best missiles when they came out.

Harpoons cost more points than Cruise, why shouldn't they be slightly better?

I did forget that Cruise are a point cheaper. So there is actually a point to be heard that Cruise are giving as good of value as Harpoons are, although you can’t be a scrub and get away with it with those.

2 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I think the argument is more that Harpoons bring life to arc dodgers dodging the arcs of would be Harpoons as much as they bring life to 80 degree arcs for ships that can fire multiple missiles.

I didn't address that directly and it does play a part, but not every list is a Harpoon carrier. Again, look at the regional data. We see plenty of lists without Ordinance, lists that Imperials have to deal with, which some do. Look back at the Mandalore System open. The winner played 15 games over that weekend and won them all. Not all of his matches were against Harpoon carriers.

21 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

List of things that stand a decent chance of soloing a TIE swarm, sans Harpoons, includes Nym, Miranda, Kylo, Dash, maybe even Poe...with support, Wookiees and Fenn also crush them. The swarm is dead, has been for a while, and the amount of buff it to competitive is...borderline absurd. Harpoons don’t help, but they don’t really hurt.

Always like the idea in concept, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it would just make the game devolve into jousting. How does an ace hit and run at -1 agi? But that’s off topic.

Which is easier, one card or a whole page of pen and ink changes? X-Wing is broken as ****. Has been since like...JumpMaster Wave, at least. There’s too many cards in the game to return to that state.

They’re a big part of it. Keep in mind, it’s not just Imperial lists that rely on them that are doing well; it’s Imperial lists that rely on everyone else relying on them. If there are more arced ships, arc-dodgers are viable.

Re: them being too powerful compared to other missiles...choice is good. So which is better, ships like Kimo and Gunboat being DOA, or those ships having no choice for their missile slot? Which gives more choices?

Would’ve agreed with all y’all a month or two ago, but the meta we’ve seen has been fun and diverse. Don’t want to see that messed up.

I’d rather play the game with some large ship nerfs lol.

But doesn’t really matter too much for me now. I like using harpoons. They do work vs a lot of problematic stuff.

32 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I didn't address that directly and it does play a part, but not every list is a Harpoon carrier. Again, look at the regional data. We see plenty of lists without Ordinance, lists that Imperials have to deal with, which some do. Look back at the Mandalore System open. The winner played 15 games over that weekend and won them all. Not all of his matches were against Harpoon carriers.

Don't forget Alan Fung's regional win either. I think it was this?

Probably the coolest list that has won a regional so far.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Don't forget Alan Fung's regional win either. I think it was this?

"Quickdraw" + Special Ops Training + Veteran Instincts + Fire-Control System + Cruise Missiles + Advanced Optics + Lightweight Frame The Inquisitor + Tie/v1 + Push the Limit + Autothrusters + Cruise Missiles "Omega Leader" + Juke + Comm Relay (99)

Probably the coolest list that has one a regional so far.

Ah, I missed this one. Do you remember when it was?

25 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Ah, I missed this one. Do you remember when it was?

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3749

All the same stuff was there tragedy nym, timewalk, etc. the only thing that hadn't hit yet was 3BQD and Fenn stuff. Oh wait...

Harpoons cost the same points as Concussion and Cluster missiles, yet do not spend the target lock to fire and have a very powerful condition that almost guarantees a 5th point of damage (and potentially more). Even without the condition they are immediately better than the other 4pt missiles, and they gain that condition essentially for free. They are the most blatant and egregious example of power creep in quite a while and it was obvious from the second the card text was revealed. They render all other missiles redundant for the cost (1pt fewer for the much harder to set up Cruise Missiles is hardly a worthwhile saving) and can make alpha strikes demoralisingly effective. The fact that they 'keep arcs relevant' is a poor argument for not doing something about them and more of an indicator of overall problems with the game. The fact that 'cancelled dice' weapons have now been ruled to trigger the condition makes them even worse.
There are other major problems with the game (Sabine crew, for one), but the solution is not to allow one of the worst designed upgrade cards in years to keep its unbalanced status.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3749

All the same stuff was there tragedy nym, timewalk, etc. the only thing that hadn't hit yet was 3BQD.

Okay, I think I saw this one, but misread the entry. Good eye!

43 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

Always like the idea in concept, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it would just make the game devolve into jousting. How does an ace hit and run at -1 agi? But that’s off topic.

arc and range dodge, as per normal