6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hold on, let's go back. The only thing that Harpoons does that concussion missile doesn't is splash on a crit, which makes Wookkies and Biggs less of a threat. Concussion missiles on LRS with TL and Focus very often nets you 4 hits directly (its like 90%). Harpoons a something more like 75-80% of 4 hits. So they actually are in a way comparable.. (cept that extra damage and that 10% less is still more dmg than Concussions. And splash helps keep dumb stuff like Wookkies down.)

First of all, if you need Harpoons to be competitive as a small based arc ship that means THE GAME IS DARN BROKEN. And I've been saying this all the way since wave5 (the wave of large based turrets). They're dumb, and there's literally ZERO counter cards in the whole game for 13 waves for large based turret ships. (Autothrusters doesn't count: They help, but nowadays, you can pump damage through with 4 dice). Therefore, your premise ... while at first a good thing, isn't logically sound.

Let's look at it another way: Asajj's ability is straight up too powerful. That combined with 180 firing arcs on the shadowcaster with its GREEN 3s and everything else just make it worse. The Shadowcaster is the next in line for bad decisions on large based ships with too much semi-turret bs. Nym is a utter mistake. (Miranda is... borderline overpowered. some say yes). Ghosts are utterly incredibly dumb for how they work (too many upgrades, too many danger zones, too much to remember, too much attack on too mobile a platform, makes for very abusive, point it at stuff and shoot play).

All of the abusive crap is large based or heavy-small based, turreted, wayyyy too many upgrade slots stuff. (And yes, in an ideal meta, I do think easy ordnance spam like gunboats might even be kind of abusive.)

Agree with this. Large based ships that don't care about arc are ultimately the problem, especially from an Imperial perspective. The decimator is fun and all but I can't take it seriously when stuff like Dash and Assaj exist. The Lambda is an absolute joke and the Upsilon is not going to fill the same role as other factions' large ships. The game doesn't feel like it's about dogfighting, especially in a competitive scene. It feels more like I'm playing Hearthstone.

Let's not nerf Harpoons, who needs other viable missile choices!? Oh right, everybody. Options are good. Harpoons are not an option, they are mandatory.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

While true... Its not certain if anyone else... can do the same.

I look at that list and say... eh. He must be good or something. I'm not using that.

Winning a major tournament requires being good at X-Wing?

Sounds like working as intended.

I do agree that requiring harpoons to keep arcs relevant is just evidence of a broken game state.

7 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Winning a major tournament requires being good at X-Wing?

Sounds like working as intended.

I do agree that requiring harpoons to keep arcs relevant is just evidence of a broken game state.

Yeah... it does. ... Would you want to try winning a large tourney with that list?

I'd pick something else. Yknow, like dash poe.

Like really think about it for a sec. I said the obvious. You think its obvious. We're actually on the same page.

23 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

The only thing that Harpoons does that concussion missile doesn't is splash on a crit

And... you know... not force you to spend the TL to fire which is the majority of the reason they're so good...

Double post

Harpooned Condition should ONLY work against large ships. Small ships can still be hit with them and can suffer splash damage, but cannot be slapped with the actual harpooned condition. Harpoon Missiles should have been the "Lets make these high hull ships a little more weak." Missile option. Not the "This is the only missile option."

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah... it does. ... Would you want to try winning a large tourney with that list?

I'd pick something else. Yknow, like dash poe.

Yeah, I'd be willing to take that list to a large tourney, especially if I know a bunch of Dash/Poes were gonna be there.

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

And... you know... not force you to spend the TL to fire which is the majority of the reason they're so good...

You'd THINK that.... But do some list building and do the actual math and rolls, and you'll find out that Concs adding a hit makes them get 4 hits with Focus VERY VERY often.

Building with either GC or LRS makes them pretty good.

Trust me as someone who has a ninja missile list that's been undefeated for 25-0 since wave6.

Besides being super good for what they do, the thing I hate most is they really kill formation flying, which I prefer to do usually.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yeah, I'd be willing to take that list to a large tourney, especially if I know a bunch of Dash/Poes were gonna be there.

I'd cheer for you if you did?

(in a kind way: do you want to try it out?)

32 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hold on, let's go back. The only thing that Harpoons does that concussion missile doesn't is splash on a crit,

They also don't require you to spend a target lock. That re-roll makes them pretty powerful.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

You'd THINK that.... But do some list building and do the actual math and rolls, and you'll find out that Concs adding a hit makes them get 4 hits with Focus VERY VERY often.

Building with either GC or LRS makes them pretty good.

Trust me as someone who has a ninja missile list that's been undefeated for 25-0 since wave6.

With focus + TL I agree they're largely equivalent in up front damage.

The difference come when you don't have the ideal shot. With harpoons you can just spend the TL and save the focus for defense which makes them actually viable for aces, they work immensely better with deadeye + GC, and you can pop them off for good damage with just a TL you pick up that turn.

So yeah if your opponent just sets up across from you and lets you line up a perfect shot then sure. But in a real game, you're far more likely to get off a high damage harpoon than you are a high damage concussion. If harpoons forced you to spend the TL they'd see a fraction of the play they see now

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'd cheer for you if you did?

(in a kind way: do you want to try it out?)

Sure, though I'm gonna need time to practice with it. Me and the shuttle haven't spent much time together. Though if you want more immediate results, I'm pretty sure at least two people are taking that list to a regional this weekend (including the guy who won Mandalore). I've played with those guys. I helped one of them fly against Dash Poe. Dash is in trouble if a well flown Inquisitor is after him.

1 hour ago, atkrull said:

are you allowed to say "Don't Nerf" something on the forums?

Not if the Nerf Herders get their way.

I still blame FFG for this Nerf Everything culture as that is the precedent they have set with many errata based F.A.Q.s. A Nerf is an abstract negative, you are taking away without giving anything back and it only benefits the premier competitive players. When FFG releases a series of balance erratas without giving any quality of life they have set the tone that the only way to fix the meta is to nerf anything and everything that wins.

So now if you lose it is not your fault, your opponent was paying an overpowered list. Those on the top 8, they are noobs playing broken ships/pilots/upgrades. I'm not a bad player the meta doesn't accommodate my play-style and I don't need to adapt to it.

Yes, harpoons are a patch for the problem... but they are no solution.

35 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Let's not nerf Harpoons, who needs other viable missile choices!? Oh right, everybody. Options are good. Harpoons are not an option, they are mandatory.

Cruise Missiles and Homing Missiles are still super effective.

23 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'd cheer for you if you did?

(in a kind way: do you want to try it out?)

How's this alternative: While I don't have the reps with the shuttle, I am considering a Vessery, QD, and Inquisitor list with no ordinance for this weekend. Would taking that satisfy your challenge?

13 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Cruise Missiles and Homing Missiles are still super effective.

Cruise are arguably a lot more difficult to pull off a big dice shot. Takes a lot more work to get your alley's lined up against an opponent that is expecting them.

I don't get this idea that Harpoon missiles are broken just because they are clearly better than missiles that came out in Wave 2. Yes, they are strictly better than Concussion Missiles, Homing Missiles and Assault Missiles. So what? Those cards have been bad since they came out in Wave 2. They were never a part of high level play because you were always spending points to trade your action for an extra die, which is basically the same as using Expose. FFG clearly wanted to make arcs matter in high level play again, and if they just made another missile at the same power level as those garbage cards, then nobody would use them and we'd see turrets and 4-ship Rebel fortresses and wookiees continue to dominate the game. Those lists are being kept in check by Harpoon missiles and it's made for a wonderfully diverse meta based on tournament results since the Trajectory Simulator fix.

Brobots just won went 6-0 in swiss at a 132 player Regional for goodness sake, and they didn't do it with Harpoons.

For as to why Harpoons have some people crying for a nerf- Harpoons are a Chemotherapy that is needed to cure the cancer that is "Fat" point tanks, such as Wookiees, Nym, Miranda, Asajj, Regenerators, etc. It keeps the game fun and alive through those mechanics. It also dumpsters iconic squads like the rebel letter-wings or TIE swarms.

The problem is, chemo isn't fun to go through on its own. If your local meta was full of innocents who didn't have cancer, giving them chemo might make them suffer.

Ideally, we wouldn't need the chemo. Unfortunately, the game has Cancer and unless they remove it all surgically, the chemo is the only thing keeping it alive.

Just saw a ton of Ghosts at that system open over the weekend, I'm guessing if you nerf harpoons you nerf one of the things that is most deadly to that build?

36 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Sure, though I'm gonna need time to practice with it. Me and the shuttle haven't spent much time together. Though if you want more immediate results, I'm pretty sure at least two people are taking that list to a regional this weekend (including the guy who won Mandalore). I've played with those guys. I helped one of them fly against Dash Poe. Dash is in trouble if a well flown Inquisitor is after him.

Let’s not call it a challenge. Since I’d be unable to live up to a return: I can’t do tournaments right now due to life issues.

Vessery are QD are definitely in the top for non harpoon ships for empire. They’re pretty good. QD being perhaps top 1. But if they don’t have harpoons they do satisfy the requirements.

It would also be wise to note if you find that other builds would be simply more effective. And if these lists are suboptimal in the grand scheme.

Also note that you may get very different mileage out of different dash poe builds. I run poe with r2-d2 intensity and dash with Vi and Rey. Plus a 2 point bid. This makes it difficult for ps8 inq to avoid being shot. Generally I play a bit more conservative until late game to preserve health on dash.

Id like to see your results if you undertake this.

Harpoons are dumb, create annoying rule confusion and are way better than any other card of their type... by a mile. They are stupid good at hunting particular prey but have the unfortunate side effect of killing almost everything else too. What does that remind me of?

The Twin Laser Turret. The difference is that turrets suck all the fun out of the game. Missiles at least require some flying acumen.

27 minutes ago, Tvboy said:

I don't get this idea that Harpoon missiles are broken just because they are clearly better than missiles that came out in Wave 2. Yes, they are strictly better than Concussion Missiles, Homing Missiles and Assault Missiles. So what? Those cards have been bad since they came out in Wave 2. They were never a part of high level play because you were always spending points to trade your action for an extra die, which is basically the same as using Expose. FFG clearly wanted to make arcs matter in high level play again, and if they just made another missile at the same power level as those garbage cards, then nobody would use them and we'd see turrets and 4-ship Rebel fortresses and wookiees continue to dominate the game. Those lists are being kept in check by Harpoon missiles and it's made for a wonderfully diverse meta based on tournament results since the Trajectory Simulator fix.

Brobots just won a 132 player Regional for goodness sake, and they didn't do it with Harpoons.

Them being better than concussion missiles is not the problem. They are better than cruise missiles,just from the previous wave. Which were also the best missiles when they came out.