Na, autofire weapon often don't have stun settings. I was saying that using stun settings is inferior in dealing with jedi's when compared TO autofire. Getting in close is dumb against someone who kills you on on strike with his glow stick up close.

I removed the energy mechanic from my table. Stuns, at least as a blue pulse, aren't integral to Star Wars. In the OT, there was one use on Leia, and one reference from Vader to Piet. Star Trek would be a different story, but this setting is for shootouts, and not using proverbial rubber bullets.

Rules more or less support choosing any target to be non-lethally incapacitated -- back to cowboys, a proverbial shot in the shoulder works fine. When you have that, I don't see the need for a Wound/Strain metagame if neither I nor my players are interested in it.

20 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Na, autofire weapon often don't have stun settings. I was saying that using stun settings is inferior in dealing with jedi's when compared TO autofire. Getting in close is dumb against someone who kills you on on strike with his glow stick up close.

Yeah that was to illustrate that I don't want people to have to build monster stun guns (or super-modded Shock Gloves) when the purpose of such an item would seem to be germane to its construction and design. A Stun Setting should have Stunning to Incapacitation as its goal I would think. The stormtroopers on the Tantive IV were told to capture prisoners I guess, and one paid with his life it looked like. So Stunning Is already dangerous without making it a fire fight to the end of the Strain Pool.

I feel that lightsabers should be rare enough in any GCW era game that I don't worry about them much, so that really isn't a consideration for most of my games. I would hope that someone going up against a guy with a lightsaber would not think that short range was going to save them, and have a better plan than to try and knock down their strain with some little stun weapon. Better be like a mob of them lol.

11 hours ago, wilsch said:

I removed the energy mechanic from my table. Stuns, at least as a blue pulse, aren't integral to Star Wars. In the OT, there was one use on Leia, and one reference from Vader to Piet. Star Trek would be a different story, but this setting is for shootouts, and not using proverbial rubber bullets.

Rules more or less support choosing any target to be non-lethally incapacitated -- back to cowboys, a proverbial shot in the shoulder works fine. When you have that, I don't see the need for a Wound/Strain metagame if neither I nor my players are interested in it.

I'm not sure what the energy mechanic is that you are referring to, but are you meaning the idea of different types of shots from a blaster? Removing Stun Setting weapon quality?

I think that you are right in that stunning is not something you see very often at all in the original material, and it really doesn't depict the main way that combats go in this setting. I also don't like the idea of the targeted Strain Pool, so I agree on that point too. I do like the Strain Pool and it's uses in general, but I don't like the meta tactic of saying, "ok well lets take on this super dangerous foe with our weapons inexplicably set to stun instead of deadly force."

Maybe one point here for the case for stun would be morality, and the fact that the RPG forces you to inhabit the world so that use of deadly force may seem more consequential than it does when characters move to a new planet each act and spend seconds in a location before moving on. In the movies, the good guys rack up body counts, so I definitely see your point.

7 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I also don't like the idea of the targeted Strain Pool, so I agree on that point too. I do like the Strain Pool and it's uses in general, but I don't like the meta tactic of saying, "ok well lets take on this super dangerous foe with our weapons inexplicably set to stun instead of deadly force."

Exactly. I don't begrudge a group if they enjoy tactical play like that, but we're not into it.

On the mechanic, once you establish that a target can be eliminated non-lethally through narration of Wounds received, in a film setting that either doesn't closely track injuries or has technology to quickly reverse them, whaddya need stun for?

On 1/29/2018 at 12:21 PM, Archlyte said:

Do lightsabers have a stun setting?

On 1/29/2018 at 12:41 PM, Darzil said:

There is a crystal that does stun, Kimber Stone. It doesn't crit and has no Breach, Vicious or Sunder.

On 1/29/2018 at 12:55 PM, Archlyte said:

Ok cause I was thinking that if you were a paragon that maybe you were a big Jedi and I was curious.

The Training Saber, (and the training emitter) also do stun damage only.

There's also the damping emitter attachment, which allows a lightsaber to be switched to stun damage, though its damage decreases & it loses Breach.

For knocking people out at engaged range, the kimber stone is the champ, since it can have 11 (12, with superior) stun damage and Breach 1.

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 4:52 AM, wilsch said:

Exactly. I don't begrudge a group if they enjoy tactical play like that, but we're not into it.

On the mechanic, once you establish that a target can be eliminated non-lethally through narration of Wounds received, in a film setting that either doesn't closely track injuries or has technology to quickly reverse them, whaddya need stun for?

Man this was really eye-opening for me. I had just told my current batch of players "don't use stun so much guys, I know why you are doing it but it's not really right for the setting," but you articulated that so much better. Then my brain went on a different track and wanted to look for a mechanic to make it happen through a new rule. I think first and foremost Stun needs to be applied as a story element and not just willy nilly. Sometimes I notice they will use it because they want to ask NPCs questions, but when I know the NPC is a cutout or someone who isn't capable of giving them info this becomes somewhat stale as the grab and bag routine takes form. Some players do not have a setting labeled "Enough Information" and want to know the color of underwear that the bad guy put on that day. Stun is their weapon of choice for that.

Less common is the need to remove a friendly or innocent sentry situation. They use Stun there because they don't want to have to hurt someone whom they feel isn't a bad guy. This situation would be a great time to use another skill besides Ranged (Light/Heavy) but yeah.

This doesn't solve my problem of making Stun itself more efficacious without causing it to be the Attack de jour because it is effective, so I was thinking that use of the Destiny Point mechanic may be appropriate for that moment when you really want to stun someone in cinematic fashion. Thank you for the input Wilsch

Again. Stun is short range. I don't call this effective. Especially not against minions or rivals who will take wounds anyway and even less against Nemesis characters who can regen strain twice per round via advantages spend.

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:12 PM, SEApocalypse said:

Again. Stun is short range. I don't call this effective. Especially not against minions or rivals who will take wounds anyway and even less against Nemesis characters who can regen strain twice per round via advantages spend.

Yeah I think my point for this thread is that I think Stun in RAW isn't very good. It doesn't do any function particularly well because they essentially just made it a damage type. I think that for me the solution is to push for Stun being more of a narrative thing than actually trying to use it the way the rules use it. Players shouldn't use it all the time or in situations where it doesn't match the feel of the setting, but when they do use it then it needs to be effective. So I basically need to gate the use of stun, but then in appropriate situations have it be effective, such as allowing the use of a Destiny Point or a Triumph to cause the stunned character to actually be, well ...Stunned.

By making stun a factor of the regular combat system we get all of the rules-based problems that you are illuminating SEA. Stun should really have been more aligned with a Plot Twist or some other Narrative function. Making it a part of combat was just a way to guarantee that Stun wouldn't really work like it did in the movies. I think maybe a riot type situation would be a good place for using the stun rules as written, but I can't think of other situations in which I think that it was a great idea to make it a Strain based system.

It also results in Shock-Glove Masters and other weird stuff.

I'm an old school Star Wars guy and I know in my heart of hearts Han's blaster didn't have a stun setting in any of the films (Screw the EU ). So, like wilsch, what I've done is remove the Stun setting from all Blasters and made it a Mod that takes up two Hard Points. Stormtroopers' E11s have it as a mod because the Empire builds them that way (and to stay with the films) but average blaster pistols, rifles and such are guns not tazers and they are treated that way. So now my Players have a couple of "Stunners" that they use when they want to capture someone but normally thy just carry a gun.

I think it's important to consider the context of when the Stun setting is used and that makes it easier to get the results that we see in the films and TV. Outside of combat Stun is shown to be the ultimate takedown - one shot (maybe two) and down they go like a sack of spuds, heroes and villains alike. During combat though we often see our heroes get hit and press on until getting zapped a few more times and dropping with a constipated look on their faces, usually accompanied by some funky camera and sound effect. The current system handles the later pretty well with it taking several shots to take down a hero or Rival/Nemisis but unless you fudge the system you just don't get the former.

Dealing with Stun for me as a GM becomes easier when I can approach it as a narrative rather than just a combat meta-tactic. I've allowed one-shot Stuns of mooks and minions I've even allowed Players to flip a Destiny Point to one-shot stun Rivals outside of Combat with the understanding that this isn't just a prelude to killing them immediately after. Once Combat begins I rule that the adrenaline everybody releases negates some of it's effectiveness which is why it may take several shots to stun someone and why it may not be the best tactic when in a fire fight, especially where one side wants the other side dead. The best thing about this approach is that I've found everyone gets it and the suspension of disbelief is maintained so no one complains that it doesn't feel right.

2 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

I'm an old school Star Wars guy and I know in my heart of hearts Han's blaster didn't have a stun setting in any of the films (Screw the EU ). So, like wilsch, what I've done is remove the Stun setting from all Blasters and made it a Mod that takes up two Hard Points. Stormtroopers' E11s have it as a mod because the Empire builds them that way (and to stay with the films) but average blaster pistols, rifles and such are guns not tazers and they are treated that way. So now my Players have a couple of "Stunners" that they use when they want to capture someone but normally thy just carry a gun.

I think it's important to consider the context of when the Stun setting is used and that makes it easier to get the results that we see in the films and TV. Outside of combat Stun is shown to be the ultimate takedown - one shot (maybe two) and down they go like a sack of spuds, heroes and villains alike. During combat though we often see our heroes get hit and press on until getting zapped a few more times and dropping with a constipated look on their faces, usually accompanied by some funky camera and sound effect. The current system handles the later pretty well with it taking several shots to take down a hero or Rival/Nemisis but unless you fudge the system you just don't get the former.

Dealing with Stun for me as a GM becomes easier when I can approach it as a narrative rather than just a combat meta-tactic. I've allowed one-shot Stuns of mooks and minions I've even allowed Players to flip a Destiny Point to one-shot stun Rivals outside of Combat with the understanding that this isn't just a prelude to killing them immediately after. Once Combat begins I rule that the adrenaline everybody releases negates some of it's effectiveness which is why it may take several shots to stun someone and why it may not be the best tactic when in a fire fight, especially where one side wants the other side dead. The best thing about this approach is that I've found everyone gets it and the suspension of disbelief is maintained so no one complains that it doesn't feel right.

Yeah I think this is what I want for stuns in my game, and you really crystallized it for me by making the distinction between it being a sap type attack and a hot blooded firefight. I like the idea of it being something that you wouldn't do once shots are flying except for very specific situations. I think that the Old West influence on the galaxy shows itself to us in the prevalence and use of deadly force. Unless you are the police or something the Stun things really isn't going to be an option, and the police wont use it either unless they have the drop on someone or some other big advantage.

The more mechanically minded people will dismiss this all as hand-wavey storybook play, so for those people who need rules but want stun handled differently maybe something like FuriousGreg's big penalties to using a stunner in combat with a combatant who is facing you with a weapon and who is aware of your weapon. I had also thought of making stun attacks require a fairly nasty Resilience check, but I decided not to mess with that under most circumstances.

On 2/3/2018 at 8:27 PM, Archlyte said:

The more mechanically minded people will dismiss this all as hand-wavey storybook play, so for those people who need rules but want stun handled differently maybe something like FuriousGreg's big penalties to using a stunner in combat with a combatant who is facing you with a weapon and who is aware of your weapon. I had also thought of making stun attacks require a fairly nasty Resilience check, but I decided not to mess with that under most circumstances.

I actually don't give any penalties I just run it RAW during combat and allow the flipping of a DP or a one shot outside of combat, or maybe if they catch someone unaware at the very beginning of combat. The real change though isn't mechanical but by making the Stun feature an option that you have to get rather than automatically have changes how everyone approaches it.

7 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

I actually don't give any penalties I just run it RAW during combat and allow the flipping of a DP or a one shot outside of combat, or maybe if they catch someone unaware at the very beginning of combat. The real change though isn't mechanical but by making the Stun feature an option that you have to get rather than automatically have changes how everyone approaches it.

Yes I think I liked that idea but it has grown on me even more. It's an elegant solution.