In the bottom control for Ebb/Flow, the character commits a force die, and for the rest of the encounter rolls it with all checks. Each pip adds success or advantage, with dark pips giving strain and conflict as well. The Ascetic talent Empty Soul gives a light and dark pip to every force power check.

Would the pips gained from Empty Soul add to the pips rolled in the bottom control of Ebb/Flow, or is that not a "force power check"? I think it is the latter, but I would like to be corrected if I'm wrong.

If you roll Force I’d say it counts as a Force power check (I’m inclined to add that to talents that prompt you to roll Force or add Force to other checks as well ).

Anytime you throw force dice, its a force check. If a talent adds pips, it will add up in the check. I personally don't mind talent and power synergy, its part of playing the meta, but around my table a description of the act, of how it might work is in order, like with any wild boost or stunt.

I thought this force power looked amazing until I realised it is a major strain burner, as you cannot turn it off.

Edit Still think its amazing but its not without its disadvantage

I like it better with Empty Soul. It isn't the strain I worry about though. It is the conflict. An encounter that runs long could be a lot of conflict.

I think I've come up with a situation that shows that Empty Soul should not apply to the bottom control of Ebb/Flow.

Suppose you were to commit one die to Ebb/Flow control for the rest of the encounter. Then you use Draw Closer with your remaining Force Dice. The Empty Soul pips give you successes on your lightsaber roles for Draw Closer. They should not give you additional successes for Ebb/Flow.

On 1/28/2018 at 2:51 AM, RusakRakesh said:

Anytime you throw force dice, its a force check.

Does that mean Suppress adds failures to a Draw Closer or Lghtsaber Throw attack?

That would make Suppress an incredibly powerful defense against anyone with one of the FaD lightsaber talent trees.

9 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Does that mean Suppress adds failures to a Draw Closer or Lghtsaber Throw attack?

That would make Suppress an incredibly powerful defense against anyone with one of the FaD lightsaber talent trees.

This is exactly what the power is used for. Did you think that a force talent is not considered a force check?

Force talents are specifically called out in F&D's description of Force Power Checks. Draw Closer and Lightsaber Throw meet the description of Combined Force Power Checks, which includes Force Power Checks. So Suppress definitely affects those talents.

Because FFG tends not to use precise definitions of things, it is harder to lawyer Empty Soul and that bottom control in Ebb/Flow. As a practical matter, including Empty Soul becomes messy. I can't find a consistent logic that tells me how it should apply in Force Power Checks AND Combined Force Power Checks. In the end, I think the Control is just badly written.

Draw Closer: Lightsabe skill + Force Die + Committed Force Die for Ebb/Flow Control effect + Empty Soul Force Points. Do those last Force Points come from first Force Dice, the Committed Die, or both? There are problems with each answer.

Are their other other talents or force powers that involve/allow rolling committed force dice at the same time you are rolling other force dice in a check.

7 hours ago, RusakRakesh said:

This is exactly what the power is used for. Did you think that a force talent is not considered a force check?

I agree that this is the straightforward way to read the RAW. I'm just worried that it makes Suppress way too good, like an I-win button against anyone with a lightsaber.

Also it doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense. In the case of Draw Closer, it makes sense that I could use the Force to make it harder for my opponent to pull me in. But why should I be able to stretch out my hand and make it harder for a makashi master to score a crit?

8 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

I agree that this is the straightforward way to read the RAW. I'm just worried that it makes Suppress way too good, like an I-win button against anyone with a lightsaber.

Only if those lightsaber users insist on making every attack using Hawk-Bat Swoop, Draw Closer, Makashi Flournish, etc. Because they're trying to incorporate the Force into those attempts, the suppression is hindering them. But if they just make regular old Lightsaber attacks, or use style skills that don't rely on Force power checks (like Saber Swarm), they're fine.

It limits their options, most definitely, but that's the point. It only cripples them if they aren't flexible enough to vary their tactics when they hit a brick wall.

Well, I certainly accept that this is RAW, but I don't intend to use it in the game I GM. Seems to take all the fun out of lightsaber combat. Talents like hawkbat swoop are the whole reason lightsabers are fun to use in this game.

6 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Well, I certainly accept that this is RAW, but I don't intend to use it in the game I GM. Seems to take all the fun out of lightsaber combat. Talents like hawkbat swoop are the whole reason lightsabers are fun to use in this game.

As a player, I personally appreciate variety in challenges. There should be times when my most powerful abilities are rendered less useful, or entirely useless. Maybe I research my opponent before a conflict, and come in with a better plan. Maybe I convince them to dedicate their force dice to Suppress so they can't use their Force powers in other ways, so now I'm a vanilla lightsaber guy taking on handcuffed space wizard. Maybe my group works to take out the suppressor first, so we can use our full abilities on the rest of the enemies. To me, that just makes things more interesting.

11 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

As a player, I personally appreciate variety in challenges. There should be times when my most powerful abilities are rendered less useful, or entirely useless. Maybe I research my opponent before a conflict, and come in with a better plan. Maybe I convince them to dedicate their force dice to Suppress so they can't use their Force powers in other ways, so now I'm a vanilla lightsaber guy taking on handcuffed space wizard. Maybe my group works to take out the suppressor first, so we can use our full abilities on the rest of the enemies. To me, that just makes things more interesting.

Sure. But the flipside of that coin is that players have more fun facing NPCs with cool abilities. If a PC invests points in Suppress, I don't want that to mean that I can't challenge that player with an opponent who uses Hawkbat or Essential Kill or Makashi Finish. If I don't want to hamper a player's abilities, I don't have to give Suppress to my NPCs. But given RAW, a PC with Suppress is too powerful at nerfing Force-wielding NPCs. Not only does it take away their Force powers as a real threat, it defangs a big swath of their combat-related talents.

Obviously every table is different, and I'm not judging how anyone else plays. To me, if I invest in Suppress, I want to be able to use it a lot. But it also means I didn't take some other ability that would help me with other threats and challenges. Is it really better than move or enhance? Should I max it out instead of my lightsaber talents?

42 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Well, I certainly accept that this is RAW, but I don't intend to use it in the game I GM. Seems to take all the fun out of lightsaber combat. Talents like hawkbat swoop are the whole reason lightsabers are fun to use in this game.

Not all fights involve Suppress.

28 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Obviously every table is different, and I'm not judging how anyone else plays. To me, if I invest in Suppress, I want to be able to use it a lot. But it also means I didn't take some other ability that would help me with other threats and challenges. Is it really better than move or enhance? Should I max it out instead of my lightsaber talents?

I guess it depends on how many Force-using enemies the PCs encounter in a given game.

As I use it in my game, the purpose of Suppress is to prevent Force-users from just wrecking each other with Move all the time, and force them to get in close with their lightsabers. It's the power Anakin and Obi-Wan were using in this moment:

It doesn't fit with the flavor of the movies to say that that same power can be used to make your opponent's lightsaber attacks less effective. Using the Force to guide your lightsaber is, to my mind, an internal use of the Force, like what you're doing when you commit a die to Sense (Upgrade Attack). You're using the Force on yourself, to guide your attacks, not on your opponent. So in addition to the fun-related issues, it makes no logical sense that Suppress would work against Hawkbat. Hawkbat is you using the Force on yourself, not your opponent.

Edit: Also, this just creates an incentive for characters to take Ebb/Flow instead of the lightsaber talents, because the devs have ruled that Suppress doesn't work against Ebb/Flow.

Actually, now that I think about it, the reasoning behind that ruling might apply to the case at hand at well. The justification was that the Ebb/Flow power doesn't target an enemy, even if the skill check does target them.

There is one thing that suppress definitely requires and that is for someone under its protection to be targetted by a force effect. So things like Hawkbat swoop dont require you to declare target "for the ability". Suppress only works where a check is made (eg discipline vs discipline) against a target.

One of the questions I posted on the Q&A on the order66 podcast was how suppress wodks with it, and it was said it didnt affect ebb/flow at all because its an "aura" effect, it doesnt target.

Wanting to change how your players relate to your story, if they choose to engage with force powers during lightsaber duel or not, isn't dependent on the system.