19 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

2) that’s both too granular and not enough. Too granular because once you attain a certain rank just coming from a Great Clan shouldn’t make that much of a difference, and not enough because there are many other things that should count beyond your birth.

Here a question that brings this more into prospective.

What is the difference between a

Ronin: 0

ashigaru: 0.4

Ji-Samurai: 0.5

Average Samurai/Minor clan Samurai: 1

Samurai with the Social Position advantage: 2 (or 1.5 if a Ji-Samurai)

And a Imperial family Samurai: 3

First we have the issues of L5Rs improper use of the name Ji-Samurai. Which the actual meaning is a Samurai with no lord (Ronin, ashigaru, etc)

Then you have the issue that ashigaru where considered bushi and thous Samurai in both real life Japan and Rokugan up till 4th edition where this was changed.

"Following the rise of the Tokugawa shogunate, the conscription of ashigaru fell into disuse. Since ashigaru's change to the professional soldier was advanced after Oda Nobunaga, the ashigaru separated from the farmer gradually. When entering the Edo period, the ashigaru's position was fixed and the use of conscripts was abandoned for over two hundred years in Japan. Ashigaru were considered to be of the samurai class in some han (domains), but not in others" which is the time period that L5R gets most of is setting inspiration from.

So lets break, and my opinion on them.

Ronin: Samurai without a lord (see commits about Ji-Samurai)

ashigaru: foot-soldiers employed by the samurai class, if L5R follows the Edo period like most believe then they would be either full-time soldiers or reservist.

Ji-Samurai: Samurai from a Vassal Family, to me this would be the lower ranking families of the clan. Small families with little influence.

Average Samurai/Minor clan Samurai: The average samurai in the clan, To me these are the Major or more powerful Vassal Family of the clans.

Samurai with the Social Position advantage: More influential samurai, to me these are Samurai that have some direct blood tie to the founding families.

And a Imperial family Samurai: Imperial family Samurai, not much to say here as it's kind of self explanatory.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

"A city governor has status 5ish. They know that of themselves and of their peers. Not the number, but that they outrank say, an Emerald magistrate but obviously not a provincial governor."

and the “ish” is where the issues start. If the numbers on the chart are “ish” what is the point of Ranks. The same thing can be accomplished by just having the same chart without the numbers. with the GM and players working out the “ish” based on their game.

I will be truthful and say that at my table I never have or will I ever use Status ranks.

As GM I have always just played Status by ear.

The system is poorly explained and has some gaping holes in its design. Most of its example are spread across multiple books and to vague to be of use.

If the core of a particularity system can't be explained in the corebook for a game and needs to be explained over multiple book (poorly) the system has issues.

"That can’t be translated to status points though, you’d need tenths of points or even smaller increments and that is not practical."

Or you need a a system that is more open to these differences. If the point system can't distinguish which city is larger or more wealthy or otherwise more important, then whats the point of the point scale.

You can get the same general information from the chart without the Status rank.

This was an example of a way it could be do. Not exactly what I thought they needed to implement in the game.

As I said aove the status system has never worked in my opinion.

The main point I was trying to make was that not all officers, magistrates, etc are the same.

2) "Too granular because once you attain a certain rank just coming from a Great Clan shouldn’t make that much of a difference"

Here I have to totally disagree with you. A magistrate from an Imperial family is always going to have higher status then a magistrate from a Great clan, as will a magistrate from a Great clan over a magistrate from a Minor clan.

if 3 officers of the same military rank, a Seppun, a Lion, and a Kitsune are working together to command an army, who do you think will be in-charge. Who do you think will in the eyes of Rokugan society have the higher Status.

Answer: the Seppun.

3) This entirely depends on your view of how much of a Rokugan's army is made-up of samurai.

As was stated in the second part of my earlier response, I tend to agree with Thoth that the armies of Rokugan are not these giant structures of samurai only.

And that most of these 153 men are ashigaru in the service to the clan in a fully formed army.

That said this number would not be entirely made up of lesser ranking samurai.

So it would not be a valid way to determine the percentage of status 4 samurai in Rokugan.

If you take into account the vast amount of calculations that Thoth did there are only about 193,000 active duty samurai in the Clan armies in total.

With about 75% of the full standing armies being made up of ashigaru in varying states of readiness depending on the current situation.

From Thoth calculations

Active Duty Samurai

Bushi: 311,000

Shugenja: 1,537

Courtier: 37,000

Mystics: 20,274

Total: 369,784 so only about 25% of the Samurai population.

"The standing armies are unlikely to include more than half the theoretically-available bushi. They’re needed as guards, magistrates, local garrisons, law enforcers, teachers, tax collectors, yojimbo, and in many other roles as well. The Crab, Lion, and Unicorn are exceptions, at 75%." ( Thoth)

1) look, whether you use Status or not is irrelevant. Whether the mechanic works or not is to a large extent irrelevant too. We’re discussing what Status is and whether it applies only within a specific hierarchy or throughout society as a whole. I appreciate that you have an opinion about Status as a concept and whether you want to use it, but that’s not an argument.

”Ish” in this case doesn’t invalidate the ranking. It doesn’t mean a rank 5 could really be rank 4 or 6, or even just 5.1. The differences are minute. That doesn’t mean the points scale is useless either. For game purposes these minute differences will rarely matter, if ever, so it’s unnecessary to formalize them. Do you think a status table that lists everyone who has a function in Rokugan in order of Status would be a good use of page space? I don’t think anyone wants that.

2) what I meant is that birth alone shouldn’t make up to 2 ranks of difference. Or even half a rank. A Gunso is a Gunso - status 3. Not status 5 if he’s from one of the Imperial families, which would make him the equal of a chui or city governor or give him more status than an Emerald magistrate, if those came from a Minor Clan. This is more of an “ish” situation again. Small differences.

3) the part of the samurai population not on active duty still has a status as well. I mean, even ronin get a mention on the status table and they aren’t part of any specific hierarchy (other than as member of a ronin organisation, maybe). Counting only 25% of the samurai population is just not correct.

47 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

1) look, whether you use Status or not is irrelevant. Whether the mechanic works or not is to a large extent irrelevant too. We’re discussing what Status is and whether it applies only within a specific hierarchy or throughout society as a whole. I appreciate that you have an opinion about Status as a concept and whether you want to use it, but that’s not an argument.

”Ish” in this case doesn’t invalidate the ranking. It doesn’t mean a rank 5 could really be rank 4 or 6, or even just 5.1. The differences are minute. That doesn’t mean the points scale is useless either. For game purposes these minute differences will rarely matter, if ever, so it’s unnecessary to formalize them. Do you think a status table that lists everyone who has a function in Rokugan in order of Status would be a good use of page space? I don’t think anyone wants that.

The minor differences are likely to be the only ones that PC will ever really deal with, considering that most anyone that they interact with that is not a minor difference is going to be substantially higher them them.

47 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

2) what I meant is that birth alone shouldn’t make up to 2 ranks of difference . Or even half a rank. A Gunso is a Gunso - status 3. Not status 5 if he’s from one of the Imperial families, which would make him the equal of a chui or city governor or give him more status than an Emerald magistrate, if those came from a Minor Clan. This is more of an “ish” situation again. Small differences.

Yet it already does so in the current chart. And to you point about status of 5.1, you seem to think that this is something unusual in L5R where it already occurs in the other metrics in the system. (honor, glory, taint) so why would it not work here.

47 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

3) the part of the samurai population not on active duty still has a status as well. I mean, even ronin get a mention on the status table and they aren’t part of any specific hierarchy (other than as member of a ronin organisation, maybe). Counting only 25% of the samurai population is just not correct.

Not correct in what way, do you have research that says otherwise?

did you read Thoth and don't agree with it or are you just not excepting it as a option?

Since he does explain why this is and provide solid numbers for all his calculations.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

1) look, whether you use Status or not is irrelevant. Whether the mechanic works or not is to a large extent irrelevant too. We’re discussing what Status is and whether it applies only within a specific hierarchy or throughout society as a whole. I appreciate that you have an opinion about Status as a concept and whether you want to use it, but that’s not an argument.

And no the discussin was not original about status.

It was about why would a group of low level samurai be sent on an important mission during war times.

My answer, they wouldn't.

Then you went off on a tangent about status instead of giving a reason why.

As It was interesting enough I decided to discuss it.

Now if your going to to say I'm off topic then lets get back to why would a group of low level samurai be sent on an important mission during war times.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

1) The minor differences are likely to be the only ones that PC will ever really deal with, considering that most anyone that they interact with that is not a minor difference is going to be substantially higher them them.

2) Yet it already does so in the current chart. And to you point about status of 5.1, you seem to think that this is something unusual in L5R where it already occurs in the other metrics in the system. (honor, glory, taint) so why would it not work here.

3) Not correct in what way, do you have research that says otherwise?

did you read Thoth and don't agree with it or are you just not excepting it as a option?

Since he does explain why this is and provide solid numbers for all his calculations.

1) At your table, perhaps. Magistrates are relatively close to governors or vassal family daimyo. They outrank the average Imperial family samurai. Magistrate campaigns are not uncommon. Interactions can occurr anywhere on the scale.

2) No, it doesn’t. The difference between an average Minor or Great Clan samurai and one from an Imperial family isn’t the same as if they were all fresh from gempukku. Imperials are more likely to get a prestigious posting, with the status that comes with it. The fact that “average” samurai are even on the table is further proof that status is tracked throughout society as a whole, not just within the military or whichever specific organisation someone is part of.

3) What’s incorrect is saying that Status 4 is only top 20% or 15% (or whatever) by excluding 75% of the samurai population. If the total samurai population numbers well over 1.2M, then even if there are 10k samurai with a Status of 4 or higher that’s less than 1%.

1 hour ago, tenchi2a said:

And no the discussin was not original about status.

It was about why would a group of low level samurai be sent on an important mission during war times.

My answer, they wouldn't.

Then you went off on a tangent about status instead of giving a reason why.

As It was interesting enough I decided to discuss it.

Now if your going to to say I'm off topic then lets get back to why would a group of low level samurai be sent on an important mission during war times.

My answer, because they hold sufficient status . Status isn’t a tangent, it’s a possible reason for low IR/SR samurai to be sent on important missions.

3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

1) At your table, perhaps. Magistrates are relatively close to governors or vassal family daimyo. They outrank the average Imperial family samurai. Magistrate campaigns are not uncommon. Interactions can occurr anywhere on the scale.

Again we differ on this as I don't see players even becoming full fledged magistrates until way later in a normal campaign. When they have gain significantly more glory to warrant such a promotion.

I see magistrates as detectives in the Rokugani equivalent of the state troopers, with lower levels of the service below them. The low level players fit into this lower level that do the grunt work for the magistrates.

3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

2) No, it doesn’t. The difference between an average Minor or Great Clan samurai and one from an Imperial family isn’t the same as if they were all fresh from gempukku. Imperials are more likely to get a prestigious posting, with the status that comes with it. The fact that “average” samurai are even on the table is further proof that status is tracked throughout society as a whole, not just within the military or whichever specific organisation someone is part of.

The issues here is prestige verse rank. Even in Japanese society being a commander of a squad of samurai/ ashigaru did not automatically elevate your status over some one born into a position. which was the point I was trying to make. As for your fresh from gempukku argument. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that all samurai have the same status coming out of their gempukku? I have never said that Status is not used in society at large. I said that being a captain, a courtier, a magistrate, or city governor are different social/command structures and that one doesn't necessarily translate to the other. And I don't see them crossing over the way you do.

3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

3) What’s incorrect is saying that Status 4 is only top 20% or 15% (or whatever) by excluding 75% of the samurai population. If the total samurai population numbers well over 1.2M, then even if there are 10k samurai with a Status of 4 or higher that’s less than 1%.

That was not why I said that. At this point I am done with this as every time you respond you just take bits and pieces of what i say out of context to respond to.

There was a whole separate section on how I came up with 20% or 15% that you ignored.

There is a entire web page write-up about why the numbers of samurai where at the level he said.

but you took information from 3 different parts of mine and his write-up which where not connected in the way you posted them to confuse the matter.

At his point there is no further need for me to respond to this as anything I say you will chop-up into some nonsensical patchwork that you can respond to.

If you can't respond in full then don't bother responding Because I will not longer be responding to you patchwork replies.

If you are interested in read someone how put a lot of work into answering the question of number of active duty samurai, numbers of samurai in Rokugan, and the breakdown of the insight ranks in Rokugan here's the website again.

( https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/legend-of-the-five-rings-demographics-of-rokugan/ ).

3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

My answer, because they hold sufficient status . Status isn’t a tangent, it’s a possible reason for low IR/SR samurai to be sent on important missions.

As we differ on this There is no point in discussing it. You are convinced that low level samurai that have never proven themselves would somehow be granted higher status.

I don't see this and never will. so this argument will never come to anything.

2 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

1) Again we differ on this as I don't see players even becoming full fledged magistrates until way later in a normal campaign. When they have gain significantly more glory to warrant such a promotion.

I see magistrates as detectives in the Rokugani equivalent of the state troopers, with lower levels of the service below them. The low level players fit into this lower level that do the grunt work for the magistrates.

2) The issues here is prestige verse rank. Even in Japanese society being a commander of a squad of samurai/ ashigaru did not automatically elevate your status over some one born into a position. which was the point I was trying to make. As for your fresh from gempukku argument. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that all samurai have the same status coming out of their gempukku? I have never said that Status is not used in society at large. I said that being a captain, a courtier, a magistrate, or city governor are different social/command structures and that one doesn't necessarily translate to the other. And I don't see them crossing over the way you do.

3) That was not why I said that. At this point I am done with this as every time you respond you just take bits and pieces of what i say out of context to respond to.

There was a whole separate section on how I came up with 20% or 15% that you ignored.

There is a entire web page write-up about why the numbers of samurai where at the level he said.

but you took information from 3 different parts of mine and his write-up which where not connected in the way you posted them to confuse the matter.

At his point there is no further need for me to respond to this as anything I say you will chop-up into some nonsensical patchwork that you can respond to.

If you can't respond in full then don't bother responding Because I will not longer be responding to you patchwork replies.

If you are interested in read someone how put a lot of work into answering the question of number of active duty samurai, numbers of samurai in Rokugan, and the breakdown of the insight ranks in Rokugan here's the website again.

( https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/legend-of-the-five-rings-demographics-of-rokugan/ ).

4) As we differ on this There is no point in discussing it. You are convinced that low level samurai that have never proven themselves would somehow be granted higher status.

I don't see this and never will. so this argument will never come to anything.

1) That’s because what you see as a “normal campaign” is what you do at your table, and only that. Other tables can and will do things differently.

2) I’m not saying all samurai are of equal status right out of gempukku. I’m saying the average status from the table does not translate directly to a status difference between samurai with a similar position but from a minor clan vs an Imperial family. It’s an average. My point was that your suggested rank differences based on birth are excessive, compared to the rank afforded by actual position. An Emerald or Jade Magistrate from an Imperial family shouldn’t have a higher status than a provincial governor from a minor clan.

As for statuses not crossing over, why is everything on one table then? And where do ronin or ninja fit in? What is their social/command structure and who else fits in there with them? Why are monks in there?

3) I’m ignoring what doesn’t make sense. I’m not interested in discussing Rokugani demographics other than what pertains to status either - for the purpose of determining whether an Emerald Magistrate is in or at least near the top 1% of status in Rokugan (and this thus hardly being a middle of the road status rank) it doesn’t matter what the percentage of samurai in active duty is or how insight ranks are distributed. That’s a great discussion topic, but for another time. You posit a number of Great Clan chui of 5712. Let’s say there are another 4,300 samurai of equal or higher rank in the Empire (a ridiculously high number), so we can round it out to 10,000 samurai of rank 5 or higher. For a population - total population, not just active population - numbering more than a million samurai, that’s still less than 1%.

4) It happens all the time. Nepotism, favours owed or granted, luck, nobody else being available, etc. There’s an official advantage that does exactly that (6 points for one rank, not exactly cheap either). Alternatively, take the Ally advantage so your well-placed ally can lobby for a prestigious assignment for you. You yourself suggest that low level Imperial samurai should be accorded greater status based on their birth, which obviously doesn’t require them proving themselves first.

Also, even what was supposed to be straightforward, easy and risk-free assignment for a bunch of inexperienced samurai who haven’t earned any real promotion yet might turn out to be a lot more interesting, challenging and ultimately rewarding than their lord anticipated. Just because the lands you’re escorting an abbott travelling from one temple to the next across are supposed to be safe doesn’t mean you can’t run into something scary. That handful of farmers turned bandit you’re sent to dispose of might have gotten help from some well-trained ronin. The samurai you’re releaving from their easy, excitement-free posting might have been in the pocket from a crime syndicate without anyone else suspecting anything. What I’m saying is, a lord might give a couple of rookies an assignment he’d have sent a couple more experienced samurai on if he’d known what would happen.

4 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

1) That’s because what you see as a “normal campaign” is what you do at your table, and only that. Other tables can and will do things differently.

No I see a normal campaign as what was traditional for the time period and the setting that L5R is emulating and not the western style of gaming that you and some others try to make it.

Quote

2) I’m not saying all samurai are of equal status right out of gempukku. I’m saying the average status from the table does not translate directly to a status difference between samurai with a similar position but from a minor clan vs an Imperial family. It’s an average. My point was that your suggested rank differences based on birth are excessive, compared to the rank afforded by actual position. An Emerald or Jade Magistrate from an Imperial family shouldn’t have a higher status than a provincial governor from a minor clan.

I was just using the chart and giving an example based on it. If I was truly making a chart the differences would be a lot less for most of the jobs and more based on birth then anything else.

Quote

As for statuses not crossing over, why is everything on one table then? And where do ronin or ninja fit in? What is their social/command structure and who else fits in there with them? Why are monks in there?

Because its a thrown together chart that has been around since they split Glory and Status nothing more.

Quote

3) I’m ignoring what doesn’t make sense. I’m not interested in discussing Rokugani demographics other than what demographics either - for the purpose of determining whether an Emerald Magistrate is in or at least near the top 1% of status in Rokugan (and this thus hardly being a middle of the road status rank) it doesn’t matter what the percentage of samurai in active duty is or how insight ranks are distributed. That’s a great discussion topic, but for another time. You posit a number of Great Clan chui of 5712. Let’s say there are another 4,300 samurai of equal or higher rank in the Empire (a ridiculously high number), so we can round it out to 10,000 samurai of rank 5 or higher. For a population - total population, not just active population - numbering more than a million samurai, that’s still less than 1%.

Again you have this idea that once you have status you have it forever, when in fact it totally depends on those above you and your current position but you seem to be ignoring multiple thing here from both traditional Japan and Rokugan.

1. When a samurai retires he gives up his position and becomes a monk giving up there status or at the most an adviser, now its true that some samurai don't retire but they are few and far between and tend to be the leadership of the great clans

2. Until such time as a child completes his/her gempukku they hold no position in Rokugan society and thus have no status rank.

3. When a woman or sometime a man depending on the family marries and they held no significant rank before hand or give it up as part of the marriage contract. They have no status of there own, as they are considered the property of there spouses family.

This is where the active samurai list comes from.

as the samurai population listed includes about 50% children, 15% elders, 8% who are preparing for marriage/getting pregnant/pregnant/ recovering from giving birth/nursing (10 years out of 24 for one-half of the remaining 35% of the population), and – probably – at least 2% who are simply incompetent, permanently disabled, or otherwise out of action. That leaves 25% available for “active duty”.

and unless a samurai either holds a substantial birth rank or a position in the empire then they will have a status rank of -, which does not mean that they are just lower ranked then other samurai. It means they have no rank at all.

this is why demographics pertain to status. to ignore this is to just ignore what does not work for your argument.

also the rank breakdown helps to see where player maybe or get to in the game and to figure out the % of NPC at the different ranks as I doubt there are may active samurai of IR4 or higher that are status rank 4 or less.

20% Rank 1, 35% Rank 2, 25% Rank 3, 15% Rank 4, 4% Rank 5, and 1% Rank 6+.

And if you stuck on the numbers remember that all emerald/jade magistrates(4.5+) are over status rank 4, Add to this that most members of the Emerald legions and all members of the Imperial guard are probably higher then Status rank 4 and the number get substantially higher.

Quote

1. It happens all the time. Nepotism, favours owed or granted, luck, nobody else being available, etc.

2. There’s an official advantage that does exactly that (6 points for one rank, not exactly cheap either).

3. Alternatively, take the Ally advantage so your well-placed ally can lobby for a prestigious assignment for you.

4. You yourself suggest that low level Imperial samurai should be accorded greater status based on their birth, which obviously doesn’t require them proving themselves first.

1. This happens at the higher levels of society in Rokugan, and very rarely at the levels that the PC will be at as the Average Samurai's family would not have the clout.

2/3. This is the rarely I am talking about. First to get the Ally advantage to a point that he could expect this the player is going to have to put out some major xp, second the Social Position advantage which I have listed before only raises you Status by one. and can only be purchased one.

4. Difference here is we are talking about player characters not NPC. There is a reason why the Imperial samurai schools are in the GMs section and not the player section of the book. as they are not suppose to be playing them. Not say at you table you can't but they have always been intended as NPCs for the GM to use.

Quote

Also, even what was supposed to be straightforward, easy and risk-free assignment for a bunch of inexperienced samurai who haven’t earned any real promotion yet might turn out to be a lot more interesting, challenging and ultimately rewarding than their lord anticipated. Just because the lands you’re escorting an abbott travelling from one temple to the next across are supposed to be safe doesn’t mean you can’t run into something scary. That handful of farmers turned bandit you’re sent to dispose of might have gotten help from some well-trained ronin. The samurai you’re releaving from their easy, excitement-free posting might have been in the pocket from a crime syndicate without anyone else suspecting anything. What I’m saying is, a lord might give a couple of rookies an assignment he’d have sent a couple more experienced samurai on if he’d known what would happen.

This was never in deputed, It was never a question of a normal low risk mission getting out of hand. thou this would not be a regular recurrence and would get really dull and lose its luster and believably after a while. It was about a lord sending a untested, low glory which in most cases means low status team on a high profile mission.

2 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

1) No I see a normal campaign as what was traditional for the time period and the setting that L5R is emulating and not the western style of gaming that you and some others try to make it.

2) I was just using the chart and giving an example based on it. If I was truly making a chart the differences would be a lot less for most of the jobs and more based on birth then anything else.

3) Because its a thrown together chart that has been around since they split Glory and Status nothing more.

4) Again you have this idea that once you have status you have it forever, when in fact it totally depends on those above you and your current position but you seem to be ignoring multiple thing here from both traditional Japan and Rokugan.

1. When a samurai retires he gives up his position and becomes a monk giving up there status or at the most an adviser, now its true that some samurai don't retire but they are few and far between and tend to be the leadership of the great clans

2. Until such time as a child completes his/her gempukku they hold no position in Rokugan society and thus have no status rank.

3. When a woman or sometime a man depending on the family marries and they held no significant rank before hand or give it up as part of the marriage contract. They have no status of there own, as they are considered the property of there spouses family.

This is where the active samurai list comes from.

as the samurai population listed includes about 50% children, 15% elders, 8% who are preparing for marriage/getting pregnant/pregnant/ recovering from giving birth/nursing (10 years out of 24 for one-half of the remaining 35% of the population), and – probably – at least 2% who are simply incompetent, permanently disabled, or otherwise out of action. That leaves 25% available for “active duty”.

and unless a samurai either holds a substantial birth rank or a position in the empire then they will have a status rank of -, which does not mean that they are just lower ranked then other samurai. It means they have no rank at all.

this is why demographics pertain to status. to ignore this is to just ignore what does not work for your argument.

also the rank breakdown helps to see where player maybe or get to in the game and to figure out the % of NPC at the different ranks as I doubt there are may active samurai of IR4 or higher that are status rank 4 or less.

20% Rank 1, 35% Rank 2, 25% Rank 3, 15% Rank 4, 4% Rank 5, and 1% Rank 6+.

And if you stuck on the numbers remember that all emerald/jade magistrates(4.5+) are over status rank 4, Add to this that most members of the Emerald legions and all members of the Imperial guard are probably higher then Status rank 4 and the number get substantially higher.

5) 1. This happens at the higher levels of society in Rokugan, and very rarely at the levels that the PC will be at as the Average Samurai's family would not have the clout.

2/3. This is the rarely I am talking about. First to get the Ally advantage to a point that he could expect this the player is going to have to put out some major xp, second the Social Position advantage which I have listed before only raises you Status by one. and can only be purchased one.

4. Difference here is we are talking about player characters not NPC. There is a reason why the Imperial samurai schools are in the GMs section and not the player section of the book. as they are not suppose to be playing them. Not say at you table you can't but they have always been intended as NPCs for the GM to use.

6) This was never in deputed, It was never a question of a normal low risk mission getting out of hand. thou this would not be a regular recurrence and would get really dull and lose its luster and believably after a while. It was about a lord sending a untested, low glory which in most cases means low status team on a high profile mission.

1) Could you be more specific about this ‘western style’ of gaming? Are you refering to starting characters off with higher than base XP? Giving them other benefits beyond normal character creation?

2) You get to make any chart you want for your table . Clearly you did not get to make the actual chart in the actual book though.

3) So now we’re down to choosing which parts of the book we like, and anything else is invalid?

4) I’m not saying that once you have a status you have it forever. I’m saying that as long as you’re alive you have a status. A samurai who retires from a position as governor and becomes a monk drops from status 5 to 1 (if I recall, don’t have the table with me), but he still has a status. A flipping eta has a status, why would someone from the Kuge or Buke lose all status just because they retire? A ronin has a status, and the fact that he’s a ronin says he holds no position. A ninja has a status. A ninja .

5) ‘Rarely’ doesn’t matter when we’re talking about PCs. There’s only a handful of PCs in Rokugan in any given campaign, versus over a million not PCs. PCs get to be Prodigies. They may be blessed or cursed by the kami. They get to have a Destiny. They get to be shugenja. They get to be Ishiken , if you want to talk about rare. They might get to reach IR 8. Why would I be bothered about some sort of favoritism or good fortune befalling a PC being rare ? It’s a PC. They get to be exceptional.

The Imperials are not in the GM section, btw. In 4th they’re in the Advanced Mechanics section, clearly referred to as an option for the players if the GM allows it. In 3rd they’re even in the same section as the regular clans.

5) It was a bit broader than that. Besides, again: status. Also, it doesn’t have to happen often: let it happen once and those low level grunts can earn enough glory to be promoted to a position with a higher status. Finally, they could be assigned to assist a higher-ranking NPC - you know this, since that’s how you described your own magistrate campaigns,

5 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

1) Could you be more specific about this ‘western style’ of gaming? Are you refering to starting characters off with higher than base XP? Giving them other benefits beyond normal character creation?

I was talking about the typical western style of every adventure is a epic, dungeon crawl or major even (Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, etc.). Somehow these fresh out of school characters are the ones sent to stop it or deal with it or are sent On some epic quest because they just happens to be in the room when it started. This is the same to me as for some reason the U.S.S Enterprise is always the only ship in the area when a problem comes up. This is just lazy writing. Basically the Waiting in the tavern for the next quest, instead of doing the jobs that a real samurai would be doing (guard duty, boarder patrols, watch, training,etc.).

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2) You get to make any chart you want for your table . Clearly you did not get to make the actual chart in the actual book though.

?

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3) So now we’re down to choosing which parts of the book we like, and anything else is invalid?

No where are down to pointing out that most if not all the status rules are open to interpretation.

The rule are left vague, and when they go into greater detail then tend to take the extreme example route.

I don't know if this is intentional for "Rokugan your way" or just a lack of focus.

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4) I’m not saying that once you have a status you have it forever. I’m saying that as long as you’re alive you have a status. A samurai who retires from a position as governor and becomes a monk drops from status 5 to 1 (if I recall, don’t have the table with me), but he still has a status. A flipping eta has a status, why would someone from the Kuge or Buke lose all status just because they retire? A ronin has a status, and the fact that he’s a ronin says he holds no position. A ninja has a status. A ninja .

No retiring does not make you a Rank 5 monk, There is a differences between a dedicated Monk/clergy and some one who is just waiting to die and meet their ancestors.

Status 0 is not status, its the absence of status. Not having something don't make you just the lowest of the group, it makes you not part of the group.

0 is always the absence of. that's what 0 means.

This is a issues with the chart as a ronin should have status of at least 0.2 as they are samurai.

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5) ‘Rarely’ doesn’t matter when we’re talking about PCs. There’s only a handful of PCs in Rokugan in any given campaign, versus over a million not PCs. PCs get to be Prodigies. They may be blessed or cursed by the kami. They get to have a Destiny. They get to be shugenja. They get to be Ishiken , if you want to talk about rare. They might get to reach IR 8. Why would I be bothered about some sort of favoritism or good fortune befalling a PC being rare ? It’s a PC. They get to be exceptional.

The Imperials are not in the GM section, btw. In 4th they’re in the Advanced Mechanics section, clearly referred to as an option for the players if the GM allows it. In 3rd they’re even in the same section as the regular clans.

Never seen a game get over IR 5 let alone IR 8. but whatever all of this is the same in any game out their. That doesn't invalidate the fact that outside your lord or the NPC magistrate you work for, most of your encounters are going to be with average samurai, that you have about the same status to. anything else below that it going to be in the half-person, or non-person range so a lot of this argument is for nothing as most of it will not come into use during the average campaign. And to clarify "average" as in what the normal adventures of the group would normally be if the GM was not running a "Lord of the rings" style adventure

I see the Advanced Mechanics section as the GM's section just because of the "if the GM allows" and in a lot of game this section would be in the GMs book.

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5) It was a bit broader than that. Besides, again: status. Also, it doesn’t have to happen often: let it happen once and those low level grunts can earn enough glory to be promoted to a position with a higher status. Finally, they could be assigned to assist a higher-ranking NPC - you know this, since that’s how you described your own magistrate campaigns,

I know that it can. its the fact that in a lot of the campaigns you and others have talked about it seems to be the norm.

As for my example you seem to be putting more into the PCs positions then I was describing. I'm not talking about watson to holmes , I'm talking about go interview the kitchen staff or the chambermaids while the real cops do their jobs, Or carry my tools as I do my work. They are there to lean how do do an investigation.

IMHO There is a reason that most campaigns in L5R are magistrate campaigns.

That being, that there is no good rime nor reason for in Rokugan for the characters to be together for any other reason.

It not like In D&D where the group is a band of traveling mercenaries looking for there next payday. (Ronin campaigns aside)

To further elaborate on the western style of gaming I'm am talking about the adventuring group.

The warrior(meat-shield), wizard (caster), Rogue (trap/back-stab guy), and the cleric (healer)

This group is fine in a European setting, but falls apart as a group in an oriental setting.

There are just to many factors against it in Rokugan.

The Clans dislike for each other.

The duties of the Samurai to his lord.

The rareness of Shugenja and the unwillingness for most clans to risk their safety.

The fact that outside an unexpected event a Courtier would not be in the field.

That's why most campaigns are magistrate campaigns.

And even this tends to fall apart during wartime.

That is why I don't think IMHO that war makes for a good campaign.

This was my original argument and what started this all, and this was my point from the beginning.

as for the Status discussion, as I said you can take it as die-heard fact or as an example of the structure. I think the latter was their intent since most of the examples give have the gap so wide as to not truly give a definitive answer.

I think this was intentional for the "Rokugan your way Idea" to show the minimum limits, or it could be to many chefs in the kitchen with no set directions on it.

As for the other argument about Status, who has it, at what levels, how many chui are there, how many samurai in rokugan, etc.

I truly don't see a reason to continue going back and forth over them as you have your view and I have mine.

I'm not going to change yours and your not going to change mine.

6 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

4) I’m not saying that once you have a status you have it forever. I’m saying that as long as you’re alive you have a status. A samurai who retires from a position as governor and becomes a monk drops from status 5 to 1 (if I recall, don’t have the table with me), but he still has a status. A flipping eta has a status, why would someone from the Kuge or Buke lose all status just because they retire? A ronin has a status, and the fact that he’s a ronin says he holds no position. A ninja has a status. A ninja .

This show a lack of understanding about what a negative number means.

Outside of plotting and position math like depth, backwards movement, etc.

A negative is the removal of something.

If you have 3 apple and you remove 3 you don't have apples.

Zero apples is the absence of apples, it is a place holder for the fact they are not there.

For the Ninja this is to indicate that Ninja are so far outside of society as to not have the ability to have status. Not to give them an actual status rank.

7 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

1) I was talking about the typical western style of every adventure is a epic, dungeon crawl or major even (Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, etc.). Somehow these fresh out of school characters are the ones sent to stop it or deal with it or are sent On some epic quest because they just happens to be in the room when it started. This is the same to me as for some reason the U.S.S Enterprise is always the only ship in the area when a problem comes up. This is just lazy writing. Basically the Waiting in the tavern for the next quest, instead of doing the jobs that a real samurai would be doing (guard duty, boarder patrols, watch, training,etc.).

2) ?

3) No where are down to pointing out that most if not all the status rules are open to interpretation.

The rule are left vague, and when they go into greater detail then tend to take the extreme example route.

I don't know if this is intentional for "Rokugan your way" or just a lack of focus.

4) No retiring does not make you a Rank 5 monk, There is a differences between a dedicated Monk/clergy and some one who is just waiting to die and meet their ancestors.

Status 0 is not status, its the absence of status. Not having something don't make you just the lowest of the group, it makes you not part of the group.

0 is always the absence of. that's what 0 means.

This is a issues with the chart as a ronin should have status of at least 0.2 as they are samurai.

5) Never seen a game get over IR 5 let alone IR 8. but whatever all of this is the same in any game out their. That doesn't invalidate the fact that outside your lord or the NPC magistrate you work for, most of your encounters are going to be with average samurai, that you have about the same status to. anything else below that it going to be in the half-person, or non-person range so a lot of this argument is for nothing as most of it will not come into use during the average campaign. And to clarify "average" as in what the normal adventures of the group would normally be if the GM was not running a "Lord of the rings" style adventure

6) I see the Advanced Mechanics section as the GM's section just because of the "if the GM allows" and in a lot of game this section would be in the GMs book.

7) I know that it can. its the fact that in a lot of the campaigns you and others have talked about it seems to be the norm.

As for my example you seem to be putting more into the PCs positions then I was describing. I'm not talking about watson to holmes , I'm talking about go interview the kitchen staff or the chambermaids while the real cops do their jobs, Or carry my tools as I do my work. They are there to lean how do do an investigation.

1) I’m super happy I pointed out in an earlier post that I don’t go in for the D&D trope of sitting in an inn waiting for something to happen. Or in another post that I think low-ranking samurai should pretty much never wander around on their own regardless of whether there’s peace or not. Clearly this was received loud and clear.

Of course lowly grunt samurai PCs have to do lowly grunt stuff. Of course they spend most of their time patrolling, or standing guard, or whatever. But why would I be dealing with that at the table? Nobody does that. Skip over the boring routine stuff that doesn’t have any impact on the PCs, get to the interesting bit.

2) you said: “if I were truly making a chart...” The point is, you’re not. At least not for anybody else’s table.

3) lots of things are open to interpretation. Certainly honor and glory aren’t much more absolutely defined. That doesn’t change what they are and what they do.

4) if status 0 was the absence of status it should not be on the table, but it is. You think ronin should not have status 0, but they do. Besides, a ronin is a samurai without active duty. If they should have a status, why wouldn’t any of those other samurai without active duty?

5) and I’ve seen games start at IR 5 (not that I’m in favour of that, just saying it happens), so what’s your point? As for the rest of that argument, you’re still projecting your style onto what’s supposedly “normal” or “standard”. In Mirror, mirror the PCs deal with NPCs of all kinds of status, from cheap geisha all the way the Hida Kisada. Having to take care not to offend or antagonize the local daimyo is an issue for the players in pretty much all my campaigns.

6) we’re not talking about a lot of other games, and needing GM approval still doesn’t mean the Imperials are designed for NPC use specifically.

7) anything pertaining to player characters rarely represents “the norm”. What happens to player characters during a game session isn’t even the norm for what happens to player characters. The norm is ‘I perform my duties and nothing out of the ordinary happens’. The norm is daily routine. And for the PCs, far and away most of their days are just that. But during game sessions, those are not the days the PCs are having.

Since I have a few friends in law enforcement, I do hope your sessions for low-ranking aides to the magistrate involve more than canvassing the neighbourhood for witnesses, securing the scene and transporting evidence since that’s incredibly tedious stuff. Surely there’s something interesting happening occasionally? Why spend a session on that otherwise?

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

1) I’m super happy I pointed out in an earlier post that I don’t go in for the D&D trope of sitting in an inn waiting for something to happen. Or in another post that I think low-ranking samurai should pretty much never wander around on their own regardless of whether there’s peace or not. Clearly this was received loud and clear.

Really this discussion has been going on so long I literally forgot if you did. sorry.

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Of course lowly grunt samurai PCs have to do lowly grunt stuff. Of course they spend most of their time patrolling, or standing guard, or whatever. But why would I be dealing with that at the table? Nobody does that. Skip over the boring routine stuff that doesn’t have any impact on the PCs, get to the interesting bit.

see last response below.

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2) you said: “if I were truly making a chart...” The point is, you’re not. At least not for anybody else’s table.

Oh, sorry the way you wrote that last response was hard to follow.

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3) lots of things are open to interpretation. Certainly honor and glory aren’t much more absolutely defined. That doesn’t change what they are and what they do.

I think you missing the meaning of "open to interpretation" here.

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4) if status 0 was the absence of status it should not be on the table, but it is. You think ronin should not have status 0, but they do. Besides, a ronin is a samurai without active duty. If they should have a status, why wouldn’t any of those other samurai without active duty?

status 0 and negative Status are what are called benchmarks, they are use to judge how far away from the norm something is.

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5) and I’ve seen games start at IR 5 (not that I’m in favour of that, just saying it happens), so what’s your point? As for the rest of that argument, you’re still projecting your style onto what’s supposedly “normal” or “standard”. In Mirror, mirror the PCs deal with NPCs of all kinds of status, from cheap geisha all the way the Hida Kisada. Having to take care not to offend or antagonize the local daimyo is an issue for the players in pretty much all my campaigns.

Starting at IR 5 just seems pointless to me but whatever.

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6) we’re not talking about a lot of other games, and needing GM approval still doesn’t mean the Imperials are designed for NPC use specifically.

Needing GM approval means, needing GM approval. that alone is self explanatory. If this was meant for player all the time it would not need GM approval.

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7) anything pertaining to player characters rarely represents “the norm”. What happens to player characters during a game session isn’t even the norm for what happens to player characters. The norm is ‘I perform my duties and nothing out of the ordinary happens’. The norm is daily routine. And for the PCs, far and away most of their days are just that. But during game sessions, those are not the days the PCs are having.

And normal things can also be fighting local bandits or breaking up a small smuggling.

These things are small, but important.

And can fit right into the daily duties of a samurai in a local garrison or an assistant to a magistrate , and don't require high status, glory, IR.

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Since I have a few friends in law enforcement, I do hope your sessions for low-ranking aides to the magistrate involve more than canvassing the neighbourhood for witnesses, securing the scene and transporting evidence since that’s incredibly tedious stuff. Surely there’s something interesting happening occasionally? Why spend a session on that otherwise?

Actually most of my games are not magistrate game.

My core characters luckily like to play the same types of characters each time.

1. Isawa shugenja

2. Shiba yojimbo

3. Mirumoto bushi

4. Crane duelist or courtier

since all there clans historically like each other and work together I don't normally have to resort to the magistrate trope.

But to your question, when I do run a magistrate campaign it normally starts with the death at the topaz championship and solving the mystery of the ronin saboteur. Getting the players an invite to train with a magestrate.

then yes the players start off doing some grunt work that will lead to a chase or a fight, things like that.

No they don't get sent off to some evil castle to solve the murder of a provisional governor on their own until they have earn some IR and glory.

after this is when I usually move on to full magistrate.