https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/1/26/a-plan-for-everything/

So there was something I suspected but never quite confirmed, that was mentioned in this here article: " This makes your opponent nervous that your objectives might include Advanced Gunnery—and it makes them much less eager to hand you their objectives if they have Advanced Gunnery among their own objectives! "

I realized that sometimes my opponent and I would look at objectives before we decided on first-second, sometimes we hide them and decide first-second before revealing. It didn't really hit me before what is the correct procedure, but then again I often play casual.

So is the official play supposed to be: Hide yo wife, hide yo kids objectives, determine who goes first with only fleet information available, and then flip over second player's objective cards and choose?

First of all, and most importantly, it's "hide yo kids, hide yo wife."

It's also "hide yo objectives."

On mobile atm, but if you look at the Setup heading in the RRG, you'll see the steps broken out, and "Determine Initiative" comes right before "Pick Objective."

Unless you both are maxing out points and relying on a die roll to determine first player, it should already be known who will be going first and who's objectives will be forming the pool to choose from when you each reveal your fleets. In general, you reveal objectives at the same time you reveal fleets, at which time the lower point fleet (or die roll winner in case of a tie) claims first player and selects one of the second players objectives for the match.

55 minutes ago, LeatherPants said:

Unless you both are maxing out points and relying on a die roll to determine first player, it should already be known who will be going first and who's objectives will be forming the pool to choose from when you each reveal your fleets. In general, you reveal objectives at the same time you reveal fleets, at which time the lower point fleet (or die roll winner in case of a tie) claims first player and selects one of the second players objectives for the match.

No not really. The player with lower bid(more unused points) gets to choose whether to s/he wants to go first or second. (Not like X-wing, I understand coz I made the same mistake before )

The question is whether the objectives are fully revealed before the choosing player decides if s/he wants first or second. Therefore the tactical implication is that, if I as the choosing player get to see everything first, and my opponent's objectives are very bad for me, I can say I want to go second and make him/her choose from my objectives instead. If objectives are hidden, then I have less information to make my decision, and this ties in with what the article was saying about guessing your opponent's objectives from the fleet info(i.e. GT on his isds means likely no Advanced Gunnery since GT overrides AG)

50 minutes ago, LeatherPants said:

Unless you both are maxing out points and relying on a die roll to determine first player, it should already be known who will be going first and who's objectives will be forming the pool to choose from when you each reveal your fleets. In general, you reveal objectives at the same time you reveal fleets, at which time the lower point fleet (or die roll winner in case of a tie) claims first player and selects one of the second players objectives for the match.

Revealing fleets comes before the Determine Initiative step. Whoever has the lower total fleet point cost then chooses who will be first, and it has to be verifiable who has the lower total fleet point cost. Only after that do you reveal objectives.

From the RRG under SETUP:

1. Define Play Area and Setup Area : ...
2. Gather Components: Each player places his ships, squadrons, and cards next to the play area and near his edge...
3. Determine Initiative: The player whose fleet has the lowest total fleet point cost chooses which player is the first player...
4. Choose Objective: The first player looks at all three of his opponent's objective cards and chooses one to be the objective for the game.

I believe that "The first player looks at all three of his opponent's objective cards" is interpreted as they don't look at them before that.

The FAQ states the following under OPEN, DERIVED, AND HIDDEN INFORMATION:

• OPEN INFORMATION
  • Open information is any information about the game, game state, or ships that is available to all players. This includes faceup damage cards, any relevant tokens, the chosen objective, discarded upgrade cards, and any other information continuously available to all players...
• HIDDEN INFORMATION
  • Hidden information is any information about the game, game state, or ships unavailable to one or more players. This includes facedown damage cards (even if they were previously faceup), facedown maneuver dials, cards within the damage deck, etc...

Since the FAQ goes out of it's way to specify "the chosen objective", I think it supports that objective cards are hidden outside of this.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

First of all, and most importantly, it's "hide yo kids, hide yo wife."

It's also "hide yo objectives."

On mobile atm, but if you look at the Setup heading in the RRG, you'll see the steps broken out, and "Determine Initiative" comes right before "Pick Objective."

Thanks

This looks about right, but I would like to prob further if there is anything that says clearly the objectives are hidden/open information? Glanced at the RRG but couldn't find something explicit

Not trying to nitpick but it will be in handy for the inevitable opponent who wants to look my cards....

It's funny that Define Play Area and Setup Area is first, given that some objectives change the Setup Area.

They are hidden.

You have to pick 1st/2nd blind, basically.

3 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

It's funny that Define Play Area and Setup Area is first, given that some objectives change the Setup Area.

No, the setup Area remains the same.

its that some objectives ignore it...

For example, the play area is always 6x4.

The setup area is always the 4x4 in the middle of that.

but then minefields throws the obstacles anywhere the 2nd player cares to, setup area be damned...

Because the deployment zone is not the setup area ?

... it’s IN the setup area, but it isn’t “it” ?

@Muelmuel Rules Reference Guide, page 8:

31 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

Revealing fleets comes before the Determine Initiative step. Whoever has the lower total fleet point cost then chooses who will be first, and it has to be verifiable who has the lower total fleet point cost. Only after that do you reveal objectives.

From the RRG under SETUP:

1. Define Play Area and Setup Area : ...
2. Gather Components: Each player places his ships, squadrons, and cards next to the play area and near his edge...
3. Determine Initiative: The player whose fleet has the lowest total fleet point cost chooses which player is the first player...
4. Choose Objective: The first player looks at all three of his opponent's objective cards and chooses one to be the objective for the game.

I believe that "The first player looks at all three of his opponent's objective cards" is interpreted as they don't look at them before that.

The FAQ states the following under OPEN, DERIVED, AND HIDDEN INFORMATION:

• OPEN INFORMATION
  • Open information is any information about the game, game state, or ships that is available to all players. This includes faceup damage cards, any relevant tokens, the chosen objective, discarded upgrade cards, and any other information continuously available to all players...
• HIDDEN INFORMATION
  • Hidden information is any information about the game, game state, or ships unavailable to one or more players. This includes facedown damage cards (even if they were previously faceup), facedown maneuver dials, cards within the damage deck, etc...

Since the FAQ goes out of it's way to specify "the chosen objective", I think it supports that objective cards are hidden outside of this.

Exactly. This is the lengthy lawyer version, and gives the step by step in case you or your opponent wants to pull some shenanigans, like a last moment fleet adjustment to change first player. LOL

4 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

Unless you both are maxing out points and relying on a die roll to determine first player, it should already be known who will be going first and who's objectives will be forming the pool to choose from when you each reveal your fleets. In general, you reveal objectives at the same time you reveal fleets, at which time the lower point fleet (or die roll winner in case of a tie) claims first player and selects one of the second players objectives for the match.

So... it's kind of venturing off-topic, but I don't want people coming here and getting wrong information so I'm going to go ahead and address this. While I appreciate your contribution, almost everything in this quote is incorrect. Please don't take this as a personal affront, but I know we get lots of lurkers and Google hits in this subforum, and this kind of post is how misinformation is spread.

Before I get into rules quotes, I'll just summarize for anybody who's not interested in reading the whole thing. I generally hate appeals to authority, but they're quick: I have played in 10 different cities scattered all over the US west of the Mississippi; and at nearly every level up to and including Worlds at FFGC. This is how it has been played in every one of those places, without exception.

* Both players fully reveal their Fleets, minus objectives.
* Whoever has the lowest fleet point total decides whether they want to be Player 1 or Player 2, on the basis of knowledge of the two fleets but not the opponent's objectives .
* After the player with the lowest fleet point total has decided who will be Player 1, Player 2 reveals their objectives and Player 1 chooses one from them.

* Continue with setup.

--------------------

First, the RRG quote, abridged to only the relevant parts because it's a long section.

RRG pg 10 SETUP:

Quote

1. Define Play Area and Setup Area <...>

2. Gather Components : Each player places his ships, squadrons, and cards next to the play area and near his edge. <...>

3. Determine Initiative : The player whose fleet has the lowest total fleet point cost chooses which player is the first player . <...> If the players are tied in fleet points, flip a coin to decide which player makes the choice.

4. Choose Objective : The first player looks at all three of his opponent’s objective cards and chooses one to be the objective for the game.

5-8. <...>

And the Tourney Regs quote, similarly abridged.

Tourney Regs pg 6 GAME SETUP

Quote

1. Each player places their fleet <...> next to their assigned player edge <...>

2. Players reveal all of their ship and squadron components. <...>

3. Players determine initiative. The player with the lowest fleet point total decides which player has initiative . If both players are tied with the same fleet point total, players must use a method to determine a player at random, such as flipping a coin. The winner decides who has initiative and places the initiative token next to their edge with the blue side containing the a icon face up. The player with initiative is the first player.

4. The first player looks at all three of his or her opponent’s objective cards and chooses one to be the objective for the game.

5-8. <...>

---------------------

Point by point:

4 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

Unless you both are maxing out points and relying on a die roll to determine first player

You don't know this until fleets are revealed during the Gather Components step , because you don't know the respective fleet point totals yet, so you can't compare them.

4 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

it should already be known who will be going first and who's objectives will be forming the pool to choose from when you each reveal your fleets.

No, this is determined based upon the comparison done during the Determine Initiative step .

4 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

In general, you reveal objectives at the same time you reveal fleets, at which time

Objectives are revealed during Step 4 - Choose Objective , which is after Step 2 - Gather Components .

5 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

the lower point fleet (or die roll winner in case of a tie) claims first player and selects one of the second players objectives for the match.

The player with the lower point fleet chooses who will be first player . Whoever is Player 1-- not necessarily the player with the lower fleet point total-- then looks at Player 2's objectives and selects one to play.

Cheers.

The short version: objectives are hidden.

Whomever has the lower bid decides who goes 1st.

Then 1st player gets to see 2nd player's objectives, and picks one of them.

(1st player's objectives are never revealed)

Not in the rules:

Given there are only a limited number of objectives, and many of them aren't very good, an experienced player can often guess (with great certainty), what objectives the other guy has.

ANd if, surprise, the 2nd player has brought something else, that's usually good for 1st player, since it means his opponent has brought suboptimal objectives.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

I love that line.

9 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

Exactly. This is the lengthy lawyer version, and gives the step by step in case you or your opponent wants to pull some shenanigans, like a last moment fleet adjustment to change first player. LOL

Just to clarify: what I said completely opposed what you said.

@Ardaedhel highlighted it best. Fleets are revealed, objectives are not. Who goes first is chosen by whoever has the lower total fleet cost. Second player reveals objectives, and first player chooses one.

Also be careful in events with this. When I was at Indianapolis regional, EVERY opponent specifically asked to see my print out of fleet from either a tournament form or a fleet builder print out, specifically BEFORE they determined first player as I was a no bid player that day. And every time I got a well more than overt hunch they wanted to peek at the objective list first, then decide to be first or second. It was the only sketch thing I've seen in events other than occasional slop in a placement or maneuver, but it was eerily consistent, even at neighboring tables. I could only conclude it was also quite intentional. I didn't have such a print out or write up that day except for the one handed to the judge, and when denied a list none contested me just explaining my list, but they certainly seemed disappointed to not see 'something'. To be fair, I had to stop one opponent from revealing his pool as he decided to flip for choice for tied fleet totals. And I got choice. So I'm more inclined to believe it's just a not well understood sequence in the setup phase. They you go, two cents richer.

7 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

Also be careful in events with this. When I was at Indianapolis regional, EVERY opponent specifically asked to see my print out of fleet from either a tournament form or a fleet builder print out, specifically BEFORE they determined first player as I was a no bid player that day. And every time I got a well more than overt hunch they wanted to peek at the objective list first, then decide to be first or second. It was the only sketch thing I've seen in events other than occasional slop in a placement or maneuver, but it was eerily consistent, even at neighboring tables. I could only conclude it was also quite intentional. I didn't have such a print out or write up that day except for the one handed to the judge, and when denied a list none contested me just explaining my list, but they certainly seemed disappointed to not see 'something'. To be fair, I had to stop one opponent from revealing his pool as he decided to flip for choice for tied fleet totals. And I got choice. So I'm more inclined to believe it's just a not well understood sequence in the setup phase. They you go, two cents richer.

That may have been because it's common practice in some places to bring two lists, one with objectives and one without, for this very reason. It's not in the rules anywhere (though I have seen tourney advertisements that required it), just more of an informal courtesy to your opponent to be able to hand them a printed-out list. Easier than walking around or peering across the table to look at your cards in a lot of cases.

3 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

So I'm more inclined to believe it's just a not well understood sequence in the setup phase. They you go, two cents richer.

The rules just aren't clear about whether or not the objectives are hidden. They could easily be explicit, but instead you have to understand that "The first player looks at all three of his or her opponent’s objective cards" means that the first player can't look at them before this. It would be best to have everything explicit at the beginning ("Objectives, fleet composition, and fleet point totals begin hidden"), but the "look at" step could say "The second player reveals his or her three objectives and the first player chooses one to be the objective for the game." Perfectly explicit, no confusion.

Still waiting for RRG 1.1, incorporating all of the new rules, the FAQ, and just writing the whole thing more clearly.

4 minutes ago, elbmc1969 said:

The rules just aren't clear about whether or not the objectives are hidden. They could easily be explicit, but instead you have to understand that "The first player looks at all three of his or her opponent’s objective cards" means that the first player can't look at them before this. It would be best to have everything explicit at the beginning ("Objectives, fleet composition, and fleet point totals begin hidden"), but the "look at" step could say "The second player reveals his or her three objectives and the first player chooses one to be the objective for the game." Perfectly explicit, no confusion.

Still waiting for RRG 1.1, incorporating all of the new rules, the FAQ, and just writing the whole thing more clearly.

Well, there is the point that when you read "reveals fleets" in full... It makes no mention of Objective cards.

(Ships, Upgrades and Squadrons are.)

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Well, there is the point that when you read "reveals fleets" in full... It makes no mention of Objective cards.

(Ships, Upgrades and Squadrons are.)

Again, you have to read in the negative. The procedure could simply be explicit.

We know lots of folks have played it wrong, which means that there's a problem with the writing. The writing is very bad.

I feel that I have the right to criticize the writing because:

1. I've been reading complex wargame rules since 1980 and, as frequently as not, I'm the one teaching them to other people. Yet, I misunderstood this rule.

2. I've edited some complex wargame rules sets.

3. I'm a technical writer, so I only eat if I'm able to write clear instructions.

This whole section of the RRG is C- writing, at best.

If you had read my treatise on "Attack" vs "Salvo", you would also understand that I'm on your side.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

If you had read my treatise on "Attack" vs "Salvo", you would also understand that I'm on your side.

Oh, gad, yes! You are absolutely right about that. Using the same term for two concepts which are both tightly related and easily confused is just dumb. I would contribute to buy you a plane ticket to FFG HQ and to pay some mob leg-breakers if it would get that changed.

Sorry to redirect the topic for a moment.

Isnt it the player with initiative is first player? Where is the rule that player with initiative gets to choose?

Ive got the rules reference infront of me so i assume its an online pdf that the rule is in. Can someone link it?

29 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Sorry to redirect the topic for a moment.

Isnt it the player with initiative is first player? Where is the rule that player with initiative gets to choose?

Ive got the rules reference infront of me so i assume its an online pdf that the rule is in. Can someone link it?

The player with initiative is the first player. The player with fewer points gets to choose who has initiative.

40 minutes ago, stonestokes said:

The player with initiative is the first player. The player with fewer points gets to choose who has initiative.

Ooooooh i see. Thanks so much!