8 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Again, in order to reach your conclusion, you have to make the false assumption that placing the token is an effect (so that the "set aside" FAQ is applicable). The onus lies with the proponent of that argument because it is predicated upon that assumption.

Besides, i did not mention scientific rigour.

I said polite discourse.

Otherwise it’s really easy to quote “No it’s not, you can’t prove it.” To EVERY RESPONSE a person has ever made (to non-locked or deleted topics, of course )

At the end of the day, restricting token placement based on the "set aside" FAQ only serves to destroy the synergy that Hyperspace Assault and Bail are (probably) supposed to have. The combination rewards careful planning and effective execution, which can pay off tremendously. This conclusion takes an objective card that might have otherwise seen significantly more competitive play, and effectively sidelines it. I don't play competitively all that often, so it doesn't bother me all that much, but if I were a TO I would be very cautious on making a ruling against allowing token placement until FFG clarifies/defines the token placement mechanic.

Nobody can truly ascertain FFG's intent, but if you look at a lot of cards that just came out (e.g. Thrawn, Pryce), they reward careful planning. This interpretation throws a wrench in what is otherwise a beautiful combination, that has the potential to shake up the meta, and breath life into hyperspace assault.

6 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Again, in order to reach your conclusion, you have to make the false assumption that placing the token is an effect (so that the "set aside" FAQ is applicable). The onus lies with the proponent of that argument because it is predicated upon that assumption.

1. It has AFTER!! That's an effect timing.

2.the card is inactive, not its effect.

3. How can you distinguish what is an effect and what is not?

1 minute ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

At the end of the day, restricting token placement based on the "set aside" FAQ only serves to destroy the synergy that Hyperspace Assault and Bail are (probably) supposed to have. The combination rewards careful planning and effective execution, which can pay off tremendously. This conclusion takes an objective card that might have otherwise seen significantly more competitive play, and effectively sidelines it. I don't play competitively all that often, so it doesn't bother me all that much, but if I were a TO I would be very cautious on making a ruling against allowing token placement until FFG clarifies/defines the token placement mechanic.

Nobody can truly ascertain FFG's intent, but if you look at a lot of cards that just came out (e.g. Thrawn, Pryce), they reward careful planning. This interpretation throws a wrench in what is otherwise a beautiful combination, that has the potential to shake up the meta, and breath life into hyperspace assault.

The assumption you seem to be making is that the two cards are “bad” without that, and they are instead not costed with that lack of interaction basis in mind.

1 minute ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

At the end of the day, restricting token placement based on the "set aside" FAQ only serves to destroy the synergy that Hyperspace Assault and Bail are (probably) supposed to have. The combination rewards careful planning and effective execution, which can pay off tremendously. This conclusion takes an objective card that might have otherwise seen significantly more competitive play, and effectively sidelines it. I don't play competitively all that often, so it doesn't bother me all that much, but if I were a TO I would be very cautious on making a ruling against allowing token placement until FFG clarifies/defines the token placement mechanic.

Nobody can truly ascertain FFG's intent, but if you look at a lot of cards that just came out (e.g. Thrawn, Pryce), they reward careful planning. This interpretation throws a wrench in what is otherwise a beautiful combination, that has the potential to shake up the meta, and breath life into hyperspace assault.

You so base your reading on possible synergy?

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

You so base your reading on possible synergy?

No. I base my reading upon everything I have said up until this point.

I am just letting everyone know what the effect of this ruling is-- which is that it destroys the synergy that FFG probably intended Bail and Hyperspace Assault to have. I say intended because I assume they are good game designers and intend to create cool interactions like this.

You see “good game designers” = Cool interaction.

With my design background, I see the opposite - I think it was good design for the health of the game to Limit it.

Especislly given the price difference between Bail and Pryce... Gicen that Bail has a conciliation bonus effect and Pryce does not...

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

You see “good game designers” = Cool.

Ibsee the opposite - I think it was good design for the health of the game to Limit it.

If you think the rules were designed to limit someone from hyper-spacing with initiative using Bail, then you're being disingenuous. It is not easy to pull off. You have opponents with relay, timing issues with Bail (i.e. picking the right turn) and, spacing issues (i.e. your opponents can fly away from the tokens).

I don't know how anyone who has a vast understanding of the game, like yourself, could seriously make such a claim.

6 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

If you think the rules were designed to limit someone from hyper-spacing with initiative using Bail, then you're being disingenuous. It is not easy to pull off. You have opponents with relay, timing issues with Bail (i.e. picking the right turn) and, spacing issues (i.e. your opponents can fly away from the tokens).

It is unfathomable that you would suggest such a thing. But I honestly cannot say I am surprised.

So which is it?

Unfathomable, or Unsurprising?

I see it as something exceedingly EASY to pull off... Since you decide everything I turn then...

I’m guaranteeing - always - to be able to place a ship and shoot and move. Always. No matter the Ship. No response. Not even a 100 point bid saves you.

17 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

No. I base my reading upon everything I have said up until this point.

That was just "it is not an effect cause I think it is not"

Well, this thread continues to become more pleasant by the day.... ?

@Warlord Zepnick What is to stop me placing a round token on jainas light? Whats the difference to Bail?

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

@Warlord Zepnick What is to stop me placing a round token on jainas light? Whats the difference to Bail?

The fact that the Corvette is a small ship, and Bail can only be equipped to Medium and Large ships. What's your point?

1 minute ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

The fact that the Corvette is a small ship, and Bail can only be equipped to Medium and Large ships. What's your point?

So the card is the difference?

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

So the card is the difference?

What are you trying to say?

10 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

What are you trying to say?

That you are using a card equipped to a set aside to make an action that you cannot do without that card.

Hence, its an effect.

49 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

That you are using a card equipped to a set aside to make an action that you cannot do without that card.

Hence, its an effect.

What is the effect of Wulff Yularen?

What is the effect of Sensor Team?

What is the effect of Veteran Gunners?

The list goes on.

The point is that not everything written on the card is an "effect." Upgrade Cards have effects.

The effect of exhausting Wulff is that I gain a command token of the same type. The effect of Wulff is not that I exhaust the card.

The effect of exhausting Sensor Team is that I can manipulate dice. The effect of ST is not that I exhaust the card.

The effect of exhausting Veteran Gunners is that it allows me to re-roll dice. The effect of VG is not that I exhaust the card.

The effect is what comes after. After I place the token on Bail, I've reserved the right to trigger the effect at a later time, once the timing condition is met.

TLDR:

Cause and effect

8 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

What is the effect of Wulff Yularen?

What is the effect of Sensor Team?

What is the effect of Veteran Gunners?

The list goes on.

The point is that not everything written on the card is an "effect." Upgrade Cards have effects.

The effect of exhausting Wulff is that I gain a command token of the same type. The effect of Wulff is not that I exhaust the card.

Why does exhausting wuluff do anything? What happens if i exhaust spinal armaments?

8 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

The effect of exhausting Sensor Team is that I can manipulate dice. The effect of ST is not that I exhaust the card.

Why can you not swop a die whilst the car is exhausted?

8 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

The effect of exhausting Veteran Gunners is that it allows me to re-roll dice. The effect of VG is not that I exhaust the card.

Is it not part of the effect? You cant do one without the other.

8 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

The effect is what comes after. After I place the token on Bail, I've reserved the right to trigger the effect at a later time, once the timing condition is met.

TLDR:

Cause and effect

You cannot place the token as a card on a ship set aside is treated as blank.

5 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

What is the effect of Wulff Yularen?

What is the effect of Sensor Team?

What is the effect of Veteran Gunners?

The list goes on.

The point is that not everything written on the card is an "effect." Upgrade Cards have effects.

The effect of exhausting Wulff is that I gain a command token of the same type. The effect of Wulff is not that I exhaust the card.

The effect of exhausting Sensor Team is that I can manipulate dice. The effect of ST is not that I exhaust the card.

The effect of exhausting Veteran Gunners is that it allows me to re-roll dice. The effect of VG is not that I exhaust the card.

The effect is what comes after. After I place the token on Bail, I've reserved the right to trigger the effect at a later time, once the timing condition is met.

TLDR:

Cause and effect

Exhausting is part of the effect as any other cost.

Also the main thing is that you need a card (Bail) to be able to place a token and that card must be in play. Being set aside it is not.

Also, placing the token has a timing. It is not a cost. The cost is to exhaust that card.

Also to clarify: the effect is what has a timing. On every example you brought the effect of the card is the ability to exhaust the card in order to do something. You cannot just exhaust things to get things. If you want to exhaust something YOU NEED AN EFFECT THAT ALLOWS YOU TO DO THAT.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

What happens if i exhaust spinal armaments?

Nothing because Spinal Armaments has no exhaustible effect.

2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Why can you not swop a die whilst the car is exhausted?

Because the effect can only be resolved once, per the rules.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Is it not part of the effect? You cant do one without the other.

No, it's not part of the effect.

Exhausting is the mechanism which prevents you from resolving multiple of the same effect.

7 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Exhausting is part of the effect as any other cost.

Also the main thing is that you need a card (Bail) to be able to place a token and that card must be in play. Being set aside it is not.

Also, placing the token has a timing. It is not a cost. The cost is to exhaust that card.

No but it illustrates that not everything written on the card is an effect.

You can exhaust Lando all you want, but you're not getting his effect unless you discard the card during the Spend Defense Tokens step.

You can exhaust Toryn Farr all you want, but you're not getting her effect unless another squad at 1-3 is attacking with blue die.

4 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

No but it illustrates that not everything written on the card is an effect.

You can exhaust Lando all you want, but you're not getting his effect unless you discard the card during the Spend Defense Tokens step.

You can exhaust Toryn Farr all you want, but you're not getting her effect unless another squad at 1-3 is attacking with blue die.

And may I discard cards even if it doesn't provide an effect?

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

And may I discard cards even if it doesn't provide an effect?

Dunno but the question is wholly irrelevant. I gave you examples of other cards that are not exhaustable. It seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point so I have nothing further to discuss with you.

Just now, Warlord Zepnick said:

Dunno but the question is wholly irrelevant. I gave you examples of other cards that are not exhaustable. It seems you are arguing for the sake of arguing at this point so I have nothing further to discuss with you.

You have cause if I may exhaust to get nothing why not discard or spend.

But Devastator FAQ exist.

You cannot do things you are not allowed or instructed to do. In order to exhaust things you need an effect that allows you to do that. Just as you cannot spend defense tokens out of the defense token step or due to other effect. You cannot discard cards unless other thing is specified. You cannot exhaust just for the pleasure of exhausting. The card allows you to do that thanks to its effect that has an specific timing. That's is what those cards do. Their effect allows you to exhaust/spend/discard in order to get something.

You may disagree. You will do. You may do whatever you want but that's how this game works. The whole RRG could be expressed with YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING UNLESS YOU ARE TOLD THE CONTRARY.

You also didn't say how to distinguish what is an effect from what is not. Actually you pointed to exhaust but placing the token on Bail is not exhaust. It is an AFTER effect. It is not place this to .... Or if you placed you may ... It is at this point do that. Just like what you do say it is his effect, another at this point do that. even from your point of view it is not written like a cause/effect.