16 minutes ago, Villakarvarousku said:

The problem is that this interpretation doesn't seem to have a basis in the rules, and the way FFG uses the term contradicts it. If you're not convinced by the RLB example (although I think it is very clear), consider Grav Shift Reroute:

The first part has no consequence of its own, and is only there to make the second part possible. Is it not an effect? The GSR FAQ:

That last phrase implies that an effect has already been resolved, and the only thing it could refer to is the placing of the grav shift token.

Your are correct about GSR. I certainly concede your point.

7 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

I say, in a calm and measured tone, it is legal because the card says I can do it, and the card trumps any rules you could find that say I can't, so it is not illegal.

Your response?

So it is an effect from that card? Sorry. I read on the forum it was not.

8 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

We could argue all day about whether or not "placing a token" is meaningful enough to constitute an "effect" according to your definition (which has no basis in the rules), and how the presence of a token may very well interact with future abilities (see for example Jyn Erso, which suddenly brings new depth to objective tokens on ships). As far as I'm concerned, "placing a token" is clearly an effect, an outcome and a payload, even if nothing else happens immediately as a result. The presence or absence of the token is key to determine whether or not the second effect triggers, therefore the placing or removal of this token would be an effect even by your definition.

But it wouldn't matter, because the rules do provide a clear (or clear enough) definition of what constitutes an effect. If it's preceded by a timing (and "After..." is explicitly indicated), it's an effect.

More generally, the anatomy of an ability* is: [Timing] [Effect]. Some cards may have more than one ability, and some abilities (e.g. DTT) may have more than one effect associated to the same timing. Some timings are implicit (e.g. Spinal Armaments), while the majority are explicit.

Let's have a look at the anatomy of Bail Organa:

• Medium or large ship only
• After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card.
• At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that token, if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player you may gain up to 2 commands tokens of your choice.

The underlying structure is:

• [Equip Restriction]
• [Ability 1: [Timing 1] [Effect 1]]
• [Ability 2: [Timing 2] [Effect 2]]

The quirk here (and it's a similar story with GSR) is that the resolution of ability 2 is linked to effect 1: If Bail is inactive during timing 1, ability 1 does not trigger and therefore effect 1 does not resolve. At that point, effect 2 will never resolve because the condition in timing 2 cannot occur.

Obiter dictum:

For completeness, here is GSR:

• Before deploying fleets, place 1 grav shift token anywhere in the play area.
• After deploying fleets, you may move each obstacle at distance 1-3 of that token to within distance 2 of that obstacle's current location. Obstacles cannot overlap tokens, obstacles, or ships.

i.e.:

• [Ability 1: [Timing 1] [Effect 1]]
• [Ability 2: [Timing 2] [Effect 2]]

What the FAQ clarifies is that each ability is resolved separately - there is no inertia. If Interdictor is not around at timing 2, the token placed at timing 1 does nothing (making it into an "empty effect", and therefore contradicting your definition). The reverse is implied; if the token never gets placed for whatever reason (e.g. a hypothetical admiral with the ability "Your opponent cannot resolve upgrade card effects during setup"), effect 2 will also not occur.

Yes, we could argue all day, but it would be futile, so let's not.

I disagree that there anything clear about the definition of an effect.

Your point about GSR is well made and I concede the FAQ is absolutely clear about the Interdictor.

4 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

So it is an effect from that card? Sorry. I read on the forum it was not.

No problem. You have a perfect right to disagree with me, everyone else does!

1 hour ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

No problem. You have a perfect right to disagree with me, everyone else does!

But I would really want to got you on the "right" side.

I mean, you cannot do anything against the rules. So placing round tokens on upgrades is forbidden. Unless an upgrade allows you to do that.

Bail does, and also say you when you may do that. If that is not an effect provided by Bail, then what is it? And how you may point to a source that is not in play to make something forbidden by the rules.

Let's go further:

RRG p3 COMMAND PHASE said:

During this phase, players secretly and simultaneously choose commands on their command dials and assign them facedown to their ships.

RRG p11 SHIPS PHASE said:

Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated, its owner proceeds through the following steps.

Why I couldn't activate squadrons with my VSD on HA through Relay? I could argue that those two rules are not effects so they could ignore the fact that it is not in play as you do with Bail. Note that being in play is not a requisite to activate a ship.

1 hour ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Again I do not understand your point, but I will answer anyway. The Bail Organa upgrade card says, "... you may place 1 round token on this card ...", whereas the Jaina's Light upgrade card does not.

So you are using an upgrade card that is on a ship set aside?

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

So you are using an upgrade card that is on a ship set aside?

It's a trap!!!

Yes

24 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But I would really want to got you on the "right" side.

I mean, you cannot do anything against the rules. So placing round tokens on upgrades is forbidden. Unless an upgrade allows you to do that.

Bail does, and also say you when you may do that. If that is not an effect provided by Bail, then what is it? And how you may point to a source that is not in play to make something forbidden go the rules.

Let's go further:

Why I couldn't activate squadrons with my VSD on HA through Relay? I could argue that those two rules are not effects so they could ignore the fact that it is not in play as you do with Bail. Note that being in play is not a requisite to activate a ship.

You have a point. Most things would fall into place with more precision.

29 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

It's a trap!!!

Yes

How? What allows you to do that?

6 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

How? What allows you to do that?

I'm not doing it, Ginkapo is! He's stringing me along with his one line questions with the intention of landing a sucker punch. And the problem is my idea of dealing with an ambush is to walk right into it!

25 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

I'm not doing it, Ginkapo is! He's stringing me along with his one line questions with the intention of landing a sucker punch. And the problem is my idea of dealing with an ambush is to walk right into it!

??

My question is not how you make a trap.

It is how you use an upgrade that is on a set-aside ship? What allows you to do that?

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

??

My question is not how you make a trap.

It is how you use an upgrade that is on a set-aside ship? What allows you to do that?

That will probably be his point.

Just now, Don Henderson fan club said:

That will probably be his point.

Yes it is. There is no upgrade card. Its on a set aside ship. Doesnt matter what it says, its not in the game.

OK

6 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

OK

It seems like the big disconnect is that you have a different opinion of what dictates an "effect" compared to the rest of the community. However, the FAQ allows us to bypass the issue of what an effect is all together.

At the bottom of page 6 in the FAQ:

Quote

"...During Setup, ships and squadrons that have not yet been deployed are in play, and their ship, squadron, and upgrade cards are active, unless that ship or squadron has been destroyed or set aside."

So all cards equipped to a ship that is set aside are "not in play" and are "inactive". They remain inactive and not in play until called upon by an "active", "in play" card.

Since they are inactive, no part of the card can be resolved, "effect" or otherwise.

3 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

It seems like the big disconnect is that you have a different opinion of what dictates an "effect" compared to the rest of the community. However, the FAQ allows us to bypass the issue of what an effect is all together.

Haha, understatement!

4 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

Since they are inactive, no part of the card can be resolved, "effect" or otherwise.

Sorry, I haven't seen that bit, where is it?

Many thanks

Are we basically looking for a definition of the term "inactive" ?

As it is, I've sent a further email on to FFG. So they can provide an explicit statement that, yes, non-italicised text is the effect of the card.

2 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Sorry, I haven't seen that bit, where is it?

It's in the definition of the word inactive. The card is inoperative. FFG doesn't further elaborate on "active" and "inactive" outside of its standard use. However, you can infer their meaning by reading their use of inactive throughout the RRG.

I suppose I could have also said "Since they are out of play, no part of the card can be resolved, 'effect' or otherwise," which may have been more clear. While there is no part of the rules set that defines "in play" it doesn't make sense that a card that is not in play can influence the game. It gets considered as if it was left in the box with the rest of the upgrades that we chose not to use.

Though I suppose in a game of this style, perhaps the next FAQ update should define both 'active'/'inactive' and 'in play'/ 'out of play'.

33 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Sorry, I haven't seen that bit, where is it?

We've pointed at it (and Olaph even provided a scan) several times in this thread!

16 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

We've pointed at it (and Olaph even provided a scan) several times in this thread!

On 26/1/2018 at 3:22 PM, Drasnighta said:

Think of a Not in play card as blank.

If it is blank, then “after deploying fleets” and all the wording after it isn’t there to read, or be followed...

The precedence is in the Hyperspace Assault FAQ:

"Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities."

On 26/1/2018 at 4:05 PM, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

From a rules perspective, the situations are identical. Relevant passages from the FAQ attached.

Once any game element is set aside it ceases to exist until called upon by another game rule that refers to it, which is why, if I kill your raddus, you can never deploy your hyperspace liberty- it isn’t in play.

TAiken together, these passages mean you can’t use Bail how you want- when set aside, he stops being in play, so can’t gain a token. When returned, he can only resolve abilities that align with the timing window of his return.

21 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

"After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card. At the start of the round matching that rounded token, if you are second player, you must activate. If you are the first player you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice."

Bail is an upgrade. He has an effect. The effect is what his wordings says. Effects have timings and requirements. Placing a round token is an effect provided from Bail. It has also a timing. If you cannot resolve that effective due to whatever (discarded, unfulfilled requirements, wrong timings, set-aside) you don't. In this case, due to its particular timing, the only possibility to don't resolve that effect are two:

1. The ship is set-aside so the upgrade is not active. As long as it remains this way you cannot resolve it.

2. The player choose to not resolve it as resolving an upgrade is optional.

That's is what the card say: after deployment.

Rules involved and precedences:

Bail's wording

"After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card. At the start of the round matching that rounded token, if you are second player, you must activate. If you are the first player you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice."

Effect use and timings

"Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section."

"An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event."

Setup

"6. Deploy Ships:"

FAQ about setup

Q: During Setup, can ships and squadrons resolve card effects
before they have been deployed?
A: Yes. During Setup, ships and squadrons that have not yet
been deployed are in play, and their ship, squadron, and
upgrade cards are active, unless that ship or squadron has
been destroyed or set aside.

HA's FAQ

Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.

GSR FAQ

After deploying fleets, if the ship with this card equipped is not in play (because it has been set aside), that ship’s owner cannot resolve the remainder of this card’s effects.

20 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is the important point here.

The only reason you're able to do that "preparation" on the card is because an effect generated by the card permits you to do so: "you may place 1 round token on this card." That effect has a narrowly defined timing: "after deploying fleets," which is defined in the RRG as "immediately after."

The rules are written permissively: if the RRG or a game component does not tell you that you may do something, you may not do it within the rules of the game. So unless you can find a "prepare all of your cards, even inactive ones" phase, trigger, component, or rule, there is no permission to do so.

Therefore, if the card is not in play during that timing window--namely, immediately after deploying fleets--there is no opportunity for the effect to trigger.

As others pointed out, the FAQ addresses that a ship or squadron that is set aside is not in play and its upgrade cards are not active. Even if we were somehow able to justify not defining this as an effect, that is the same terminology used to describe the cards equipped to destroyed ships:

RRG pg 5 DESTROYED SHIPS AND SQUADRONS

and to discarded cards:

RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING

4 hours ago, Villakarvarousku said:

The problem is that this interpretation doesn't seem to have a basis in the rules, and the way FFG uses the term contradicts it. If you're not convinced by the RLB example (although I think it is very clear), consider Grav Shift Reroute:

The first part has no consequence of its own, and is only there to make the second part possible. Is it not an effect? The GSR FAQ:

That last phrase implies that an effect has already been resolved, and the only thing it could refer to is the placing of the grav shift token.

57 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

It seems like the big disconnect is that you have a different opinion of what dictates an "effect" compared to the rest of the community. However, the FAQ allows us to bypass the issue of what an effect is all together.

At the bottom of page 6 in the FAQ:

So all cards equipped to a ship that is set aside are "not in play" and are "inactive". They remain inactive and not in play until called upon by an "active", "in play" card.

Since they are inactive, no part of the card can be resolved, "effect" or otherwise.

Post where it was quoted or close to it. There are also several where it was mentioned.

Some have it as quotes so are not visible here.

This is truly expert trolling, DHFC. Congrats. You've managed to string along pretty much every major contributor to this sub-forum for a good day and a half here.

Now stop. You'll confuse people who come here from Google looking for actual answers.

36 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is truly expert trolling, DHFC. Congrats. You've managed to string along pretty much every major contributor to this sub-forum for a good day and a half here.

Now stop. You'll confuse people who come here from Google looking for actual answers.

I didn't notice until this:

4 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

That will probably be his point.

3 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is truly expert trolling, DHFC. Congrats. You've managed to string along pretty much every major contributor to this sub-forum for a good day and a half here.

Now stop. You'll confuse people who come here from Google looking for actual answers.

You all kept repeating the same things though, need to go outside the box to really make it obvious...

We don't even need a FFG definition of effect. We can use the plain English definition:

n. a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

Adding a token to an upgrade card is clearly a change that is a result of an action, in this case caused by the text of the card.

Effect.

7 hours ago, stonestokes said:

We don't even need a FFG definition of effect. We can use the plain English definition:

n. a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause.

Adding a token to an upgrade card is clearly a change that is a result of an action, in this case caused by the text of the card.

Effect.

16 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Sorry, I haven't seen that bit, where is it?

Many thanks