31 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is the important point here.

The only reason you're able to do that "preparation" on the card is because an effect generated by the card permits you to do so: "you may place 1 round token on this card." That effect has a narrowly defined timing: "after deploying fleets," which is defined in the RRG as "immediately after."

The rules are written permissively: if the RRG or a game component does not tell you that you may do something, you may not do it within the rules of the game. So unless you can find a "prepare all of your cards, even inactive ones" phase, trigger, component, or rule, there is no permission to do so.

Therefore, if the card is not in play during that timing window--namely, immediately after deploying fleets--there is no opportunity for the effect to trigger.

As others pointed out, the FAQ addresses that a ship or squadron that is set aside is not in play and its upgrade cards are not active. Even if we were somehow able to justify not defining this as an effect, that is the same terminology used to describe the cards equipped to destroyed ships:

RRG pg 5 DESTROYED SHIPS AND SQUADRONS

and to discarded cards:

RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING

So cool when you "fake-quote". How do you do that?

You mean like...

Quote

This?

You click the button on the editor that looks like quotation marks ("). Probably the best way to do it is type out what you want to quote first, then click and drag on the text to highlight it, then click the (") button on the editor to put the highlighted text in the Quote box.

3 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

So cool when you "fake-quote". How do you do that?

You used to be able to do it with

[quote]Fake quote goes here.[/quote]

Sometimes that still works, sometimes it leads to the horrible twisted mess of nested quotes that I occasionally post and have to go back and fix.

Even better was that you could do

[quote name="RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING"]No, 'after attacking' doesn't mean any time you **** well please.[/quote] 

to put a title on it, like this. I have not yet figured out how to replicate that functionality since the second-most recent forum change.

8 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Well, I withdraw from this unequal struggle. However I remain convinced that you are wilfully misinterpreting/misrepresenting the wording. You are stating what you want it to say rather than what it does say. The field is yours.

I understand that this is obviously not the answer you are wanting to hear, but unfortunately the answer that was provided is correct. Card timing in Armada is critical, and there are several cards that are rendered useless under certain circumstances, PARTICULARLY on ships that begin the game in Hyperspace. So, it's not that anyone is disrespecting you, but the basic scenario you are presenting (cards that trigger IMMEDIATELY AFTER deployment equipped to ships that begin the game off the board) has been asked and covered several times, and is well documented in several FAQ's.

Keep in mind however, that while what's been told to you WILL be enforced in a tournament setting, you are free to play the cards out however you wish if you are in a casual gaming group setting and everyone is on board with that. It's just a game, and if your group is good with some house rules, then go for it!

There is a logic to what you were saying about Bail, and an argument could be made.. and was made.. and ffg ruled it doesn't work, that cards set aside do not work.. ship has to be deployed/on the board when the card triggers to work.

It's not a matter of arguing at this point, because FFG put it in the FAQ and ruled one way over the other. I could have seen it interpreted either way, but the official rule is Bail (or Needa or any other start of game/rd1 effect) is wasted if it's set aside on/during turn 1.

7 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

You used to be able to do it with

[quote]Fake quote goes here.[/quote]

Sometimes that still works, sometimes it leads to the horrible twisted mess of nested quotes that I occasionally post and have to go back and fix.

Even better was that you could do

[quote name="RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING"]No, 'after attacking' doesn't mean any time you **** well please.[/quote] 

to put a title on it, like this. I have not yet figured out how to replicate that functionality since the second-most recent forum change.

I wonder if this is gonna work on my mobile.

Not the title.

trial two said:

now?

Woohooo!

15 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

And here was me giving you a break....

13 hours ago, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

Placing the round counter is a different effect; cards can have more than one. This is a pretty simple situation that everyone else here seems to apprehend pretty fully, and if i’m getting acerbic it’s because seeing one of the most respected TOs in the game repeatedly explain it to you and having you say “I disagree” while being unwilling or unable to cite any grounds for that disagreement beyond your inability to see past your own opinion is a bit frustrating.

You’ve somehow got it in your head that there can be more than one kind of “not in play,” which is a really strange outcome for an argument based on the natural use of language to generate.

I have repeatedly made my point, but it seems you and your respected TO are blind to it. In fact your respected TO's counter argument was that it is a non-issue and that the ball is in my court. Well, I am hitting the ball right back.

I'll try putting my argument another way. This is as clear and logical as I can make it.

The Bail Organa upgrade card says: "After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card. At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token, if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice." You should note that there are two sentences, only the second of which is the effect.

The placement of a round token on the card is required to make the card work and is a new mechanic for this wave. But in principle it is no different to a card that says, "While attacking ...", but instead is says, "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token ...". The only difference is that the player is given the option of placing a round token on the card.

One of the Golden Rules on the Rules Reference says: "Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence."

The Bail Organa upgrade card makes no reference to whether the card is active or not when the round counter is placed. It simply tells you when to place the round counter on the card and what the timing and effect of the card are. That is it. If you think that placing a round counter on the card at the time specified contradicts a rule, then the Golden Rule tells you that what is on the card takes precedence. No argument possible. It's a Golden Rule. The player has the right to put a round token on the card.

Now I am aware that a card's effects cannot be used when it is inactive, so if Bail is still off table when the time for action arrives, tough. But if the ship to which that card is equipped enters the table before the effect triggers, then the rules as written say the card is active and effect happens.

If you feel that you want to respond to this post, then feel free, but please address the points I have made.

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who chipped in to clarify, and especially to @Drasnighta because I trust your exceptional ability to parse rule interactions correctly over the last few years. I really appreciate the work you put in here interpreting and collating answers.

(Just wanted to bring some positivity and appreciation to the rules forum)

5 hours ago, Daht said:

There is a logic to what you were saying about Bail, and an argument could be made.. and was made.. and ffg ruled it doesn't work, that cards set aside do not work.. ship has to be deployed/on the board when the card triggers to work.

It's not a matter of arguing at this point, because FFG put it in the FAQ and ruled one way over the other. I could have seen it interpreted either way, but the official rule is Bail (or Needa or any other start of game/rd1 effect) is wasted if it's set aside on/during turn 1.

Thanks for that. Please can you tell me what form of words FFG used to communicate that ruling, because what I see in the FAQ does not prevent Bail from working.

Indeed, taking your own wording, "... ship has to be deployed/on the board when the card triggers to work. ..." means that once his ship arrives on the table, the effect, "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token, if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice." does actually happen, i.e. it triggers, "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token ...". It most emphatically does not trigger, "After deploying fleets ...".

Thanks again.

15 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

HA's FAQ

Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.

GSR FAQ

After deploying fleets, if the ship with this card equipped is not in play (because it has been set aside), that ship’s owner cannot resolve the remainder of this card’s effects.

Thanks again for the detailed response.

I just want to point out that neither of these apply to the player placing a round token on the Bail card. Bail's abililty/effect is, "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token, if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice." The player placing a token on a card is neither an ability nor an effect.

Thanks again.

14 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is the important point here.

The only reason you're able to do that "preparation" on the card is because an effect generated by the card permits you to do so: "you may place 1 round token on this card." That effect has a narrowly defined timing: "after deploying fleets," which is defined in the RRG as "immediately after."

The rules are written permissively: if the RRG or a game component does not tell you that you may do something, you may not do it within the rules of the game. So unless you can find a "prepare all of your cards, even inactive ones" phase, trigger, component, or rule, there is no permission to do so.

Therefore, if the card is not in play during that timing window--namely, immediately after deploying fleets--there is no opportunity for the effect to trigger.

As others pointed out, the FAQ addresses that a ship or squadron that is set aside is not in play and its upgrade cards are not active. Even if we were somehow able to justify not defining this as an effect, that is the same terminology used to describe the cards equipped to destroyed ships:

RRG pg 5 DESTROYED SHIPS AND SQUADRONS

and to discarded cards:

RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING

Thanks for that. Our differences here are twofold; what constitutes an effect and what you can do with an inactive card.

I absolutely agree that the rules prevent you from using an effect from an inactive card. But I don't believe they prevent you from placing a counter on an inactive card, because doing so is not an effect. There are two sentences on the Bail card and it the second that is the effect, not the first. The fact that the first sentence contains the word after in no way signifies it is an effect, it simply signifies a point in a sequence.

Thanks again

15 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Thanks again for the detailed response.

I just want to point out that neither of these apply to the player placing a round token on the Bail card. Bail's abililty/effect is, "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token, if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice." The player placing a token on a card is neither an ability nor an effect.

Thanks again.

What is it then? If you use a single term to characterise the placing of the token, what would you call that mechanism that allows you to do so? What Armada term is used to denote or define that?

If it is not an effect, what is it then?

What happens if I stick round tokens on Jaina's light? Its not an effect, so I am allowed to place round tokens on her card. Am I prevented from doing this if the ship is Raddus'd?

Why is this any different?

25 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

The player placing a token on a card is neither an ability nor an effect.

See, this is where the disconnect is – I'm finding it hard to understand why you think this is the case. Could you specify what you're basing that on?

As an example, take the Rapid Launch Bays errata.

Quote

Rapid Launch Bays

This card’s effect should read:

“Before deploying fleets, you may set aside a number of friendly squadrons up to your squadron value next to your ship card.

O: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It Updated Card cannot move this activation.”

This seems to indicate that in FFG language, the whole setting aside bit is part of the effect. The "effect" of an upgrade card is the entire text, save perhaps restrictions such as Modification or Large ship only (not sure about that).

RRG p. 5:

Quote

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

So in Bail's case,

Quote

After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card.

is an effect, the timing of which is "After deploying fleets".

8 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

I understand that this is obviously not the answer you are wanting to hear, but unfortunately the answer that was provided is correct. Card timing in Armada is critical, and there are several cards that are rendered useless under certain circumstances, PARTICULARLY on ships that begin the game in Hyperspace. So, it's not that anyone is disrespecting you, but the basic scenario you are presenting (cards that trigger IMMEDIATELY AFTER deployment equipped to ships that begin the game off the board) has been asked and covered several times, and is well documented in several FAQ's.

Keep in mind however, that while what's been told to you WILL be enforced in a tournament setting, you are free to play the cards out however you wish if you are in a casual gaming group setting and everyone is on board with that. It's just a game, and if your group is good with some house rules, then go for it!

Thanks for that - I do appreciate it.

But I do take issue with one thing you have said, "... cards that trigger IMMEDIATELY AFTER deployment ...". The Bail card triggers, "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token ...", not "After deploying fleets ...". The effect of a card is its payload, and the payload is, "... if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice." whilst "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token ..." is the timing of the effect.

Thanks again.

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

What happens if I stick round tokens on Jaina's light? Its not an effect, so I am allowed to place round tokens on her card. Am I prevented from doing this if the ship is Raddus'd?

Why is this any different?

If a card says that you can put a round token on a particular card, then you are entitled to do so. But I don't understand your example.

30 minutes ago, Villakarvarousku said:

See, this is where the disconnect is – I'm finding it hard to understand why you think this is the case. Could you specify what you're basing that on?

As an example, take the Rapid Launch Bays errata.

This seems to indicate that in FFG language, the whole setting aside bit is part of the effect. The "effect" of an upgrade card is the entire text, save perhaps restrictions such as Modification or Large ship only (not sure about that).

RRG p. 5:

So in Bail's case,

is an effect, the timing of which is "After deploying fleets".

The reason I do not think that placing a round token on a card is an effect is that in and of itself the act of doing so has no payload; no extra dice, no discarded tokens, no activation change, in fact no immediate result/consequence/outcome at all. Whereas the second sentence does have such a payload, namely, "... if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice."

As for what the first sentence is in FFG parlance, I don't think there is an answer to that as it is a new mechanism. FFG may indeed decide to define "effect" as having a meaning other than result/consequence/outcome and thereby include the first sentence in the card's effect. But as written at the moment I firmly believe that the first sentence is not part of the effect of the card. But hey, I'm a minority of one!

Thanks for the response.

PS I do not see where it say that the whole text of a card constitutes its effect.

33 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

If a card says that you can put a round token on a particular card, then you are entitled to do so. But I don't understand your example.

So what stops me putting a token on Jainas light? What is the difference with Bail?

10 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

So what stops me putting a token on Jainas light? What is the difference with Bail?

Again I do not understand your point, but I will answer anyway. The Bail Organa upgrade card says, "... you may place 1 round token on this card ...", whereas the Jaina's Light upgrade card does not.

1 hour ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Thanks again for the detailed response.

I just want to point out that neither of these apply to the player placing a round token on the Bail card. Bail's abililty/effect is, "At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that round token, if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice." The player placing a token on a card is neither an ability nor an effect.

Thanks again.

But it is!!

Ok, let's say we are playing against each other.

You play with Bail and put a round token on it. I stop you and ask you: why you put a round token in Bail. It is not legal.

Your response?

30 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

The reason I do not think that placing a round token on a card is an effect is that in and of itself the act of doing so has no payload; no extra dice, no discarded tokens, no activation change, in fact no immediate result/consequence/outcome at all.

The problem is that this interpretation doesn't seem to have a basis in the rules, and the way FFG uses the term contradicts it. If you're not convinced by the RLB example (although I think it is very clear), consider Grav Shift Reroute:

Quote

Before deploying fleets, place 1 grav shift token anywhere in the play area.

After deploying fleets, you may move each obstacle at distance 1–3 of that token to within distance 2 of that obstacle’s current location. Obstacles cannot overlap tokens, obstacles, or ships.

The first part has no consequence of its own, and is only there to make the second part possible. Is it not an effect? The GSR FAQ:

Quote

After deploying fleets, if the ship with this card equipped is not in play (because it has been set aside), that ship’s owner cannot resolve the remainder of this card’s effects.

That last phrase implies that an effect has already been resolved, and the only thing it could refer to is the placing of the grav shift token.

Just now, Don Henderson fan club said:

The reason I do not think that placing a round token on a card is an effect is that in and of itself the act of doing so has no payload; no extra dice, no discarded tokens, no activation change, in fact no immediate result/consequence/outcome at all. Whereas the second sentence does have such a payload, namely, "... if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player, you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice."

We could argue all day about whether or not "placing a token" is meaningful enough to constitute an "effect" according to your definition (which has no basis in the rules), and how the presence of a token may very well interact with future abilities (see for example Jyn Erso, which suddenly brings new depth to objective tokens on ships). As far as I'm concerned, "placing a token" is clearly an effect, an outcome and a payload, even if nothing else happens immediately as a result. The presence or absence of the token is key to determine whether or not the second effect triggers, therefore the placing or removal of this token would be an effect even by your definition.

But it wouldn't matter, because the rules do provide a clear (or clear enough) definition of what constitutes an effect. If it's preceded by a timing (and "After..." is explicitly indicated), it's an effect.

More generally, the anatomy of an ability* is: [Timing] [Effect]. Some cards may have more than one ability, and some abilities (e.g. DTT) may have more than one effect associated to the same timing. Some timings are implicit (e.g. Spinal Armaments), while the majority are explicit.

Let's have a look at the anatomy of Bail Organa:

• Medium or large ship only
• After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card.
• At the start of the Ship Phase of the round matching that token, if you are the second player you must activate, if you are the first player you may gain up to 2 commands tokens of your choice.

The underlying structure is:

• [Equip Restriction]
• [Ability 1: [Timing 1] [Effect 1]]
• [Ability 2: [Timing 2] [Effect 2]]

The quirk here (and it's a similar story with GSR) is that the resolution of ability 2 is linked to effect 1: If Bail is inactive during timing 1, ability 1 does not trigger and therefore effect 1 does not resolve. At that point, effect 2 will never resolve because the condition in timing 2 cannot occur.

Obiter dictum:

For completeness, here is GSR:

• Before deploying fleets, place 1 grav shift token anywhere in the play area.
• After deploying fleets, you may move each obstacle at distance 1-3 of that token to within distance 2 of that obstacle's current location. Obstacles cannot overlap tokens, obstacles, or ships.

i.e.:

• [Ability 1: [Timing 1] [Effect 1]]
• [Ability 2: [Timing 2] [Effect 2]]

What the FAQ clarifies is that each ability is resolved separately - there is no inertia. If Interdictor is not around at timing 2, the token placed at timing 1 does nothing (making it into an "empty effect", and therefore contradicting your definition). The reverse is implied; if the token never gets placed for whatever reason (e.g. a hypothetical admiral with the ability "Your opponent cannot resolve upgrade card effects during setup"), effect 2 will also not occur.

8 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

But it is!!

Ok, let's say we are playing against each other.

You play with Bail and put a round token on it. I stop you and ask you: why you put a round token in Bail. It is not legal.

Your response?

I say, in a calm and measured tone, it is legal because the card says I can do it, and the card trumps any rules you could find that say I can't, so it is not illegal.

Your response?