...if you want to trigger his card's conditions?

If Bail is in a ship that is off the board (Raddus or Hyperspace Assault) can you still place a round counter on his card?

Obviously you can't use Bail without him arriving in the game, but can you still set the ability up?

As stated in other threads - he must be present - in play - after deploying fleets.

if he is off board, perhaps due to Raddus, he is not in play.

as confirmed by FAQ.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

As stated in other threads - he must be present - in play - after deploying fleets.

if he is off board, perhaps due to Raddus, he is not in play.

as confirmed by FAQ.

As you say, it is clear that the player cannot use the Bail Organa upgrade card's effect when the card is not in play. But what rule prevents the player from placing the round token on the card before it is in play? Thanks in advance.

Bails timing is "after deploying fleets"

If he is not in play at that exact moment - immediately after fleets have been deployed... He does not exist for you to put tokens on.

You dont read his text to do what he says,

Cards that are not in play are not active, so you don't place a round token on him.

So when he enters play there is no round token on him... Just as if you had elected to not place one due to his "may" statement,

2 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

As you say, it is clear that the player cannot use the Bail Organa upgrade card's effect when the card is not in play. But what rule prevents the player from placing the round token on the card before it is in play? Thanks in advance.

The round token is placed immediately after deployment. Since Bail's ship didn't participate in deployment, his trigger to place the token never happens.

Moral of the story: Bail Organa should stay out of hyperspace.

1 minute ago, LeatherPants said:

The round token is placed immediately after deployment. Since Bail's ship didn't participate in deployment, his trigger to place the token never happens.

Moral of the story: Bail Organa should stay out of hyperspace.

Yes, that's exactly what I don't understand - the card says "... after deploying fleets ...", so my question is what rule prevents a player from placing a round token on the card at the time specified even if it is not yet in play? The card itself certainly doesn't prevent it. Thanks in advance.

10 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Yes, that's exactly what I don't understand - the card says "... after deploying fleets ...", so my question is what rule prevents a player from placing a round token on the card at the time specified even if it is not yet in play? The card itself certainly doesn't prevent it. Thanks in advance.

Think of a Not in play card as blank.

If it is blank, then “after deploying fleets” and all the wording after it isn’t there to read, or be followed...

The precedence is in the Hyperspace Assault FAQ:

"Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities."

The same rule that prevents you from using assault proton torpedoes you did not equip to your gladiator: the card is not in play.

3 minutes ago, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

The same rule that prevents you from using assault proton torpedoes you did not equip to your gladiator: the card is not in play.

Sorry, but I disagree. The thing that prevents APT from being used in your example is that it is not equipped to a ship that is on the table. However what I am discussing is when the Bail Organa upgrade card is equipped to a ship, but that ship is not yet on the table. The two situations are fundamentally different.

11 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Think of a Not in play card as blank.

If it is blank, then “after deploying fleets” and all the wording after it isn’t there to read, or be followed...

the rukes wuote on cards cards out of playing not existingbeill follow shortly

So, are you saying that if a ship with Captain Needa equipped is not on the table at the start of the game, then the defence tokens cannot be swapped? That's not an interpretation I have heard before.

I don't see any rule that prohibits these preparations, even if ships involved are not yet in play - the effect, yes, but the preparation for later use, no.

16 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

So, are you saying that if a ship with Captain Needa equipped is not on the table at the start of the game, then the defence tokens cannot be swapped? That's not an interpretation I have heard before.

I don't see any rule that prohibits these preparations, even if ships involved are not yet in play - the effect, yes, but the preparation for later use, no.

Just like Motti being dead strips the extra hull from ships. Wether he explodes or just hasn’t turned up yet.

Needa triggers the start of the first round. If he is not on the board (presumably due to hyperspace assault) then he does not trigger. Too bad so sad. This is 100% confirmed by FAQ and the only normal-game way Needa can NOT be on the board...

Garm in hyperspace assault does not generate tokens first round. Too bad so sad.

The precedence is right there. It has been confirmed by faq and by email responses, to the point that it’s a “non issue” anymore ?

if we go by the statement that there is no rule for or against it specifically..... let us play precedence wars... I’ve found a precedent for my interpretation and ruling.... balls in your court to do the same for yours ?

33 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Sorry, but I disagree. The thing that prevents APT from being used in your example is that it is not equipped to a ship that is on the table. However what I am discussing is when the Bail Organa upgrade card is equipped to a ship, but that ship is not yet on the table. The two situations are fundamentally different.

From a rules perspective, the situations are identical. Relevant passages from the FAQ attached.

Once any game element is set aside it ceases to exist until called upon by another game rule that refers to it, which is why, if I kill your raddus, you can never deploy your hyperspace liberty- it isn’t in play.

TAiken together, these passages mean you can’t use Bail how you want- when set aside, he stops being in play, so can’t gain a token. When returned, he can only resolve abilities that align with the timing window of his return.

53 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Think of a Not in play card as blank.

If it is blank, then “after deploying fleets” and all the wording after it isn’t there to read, or be followed...

The precedence is in the Hyperspace Assault FAQ:

"Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities."

Thanks. I was sure that I'd seen something to that effect but didn't find it in the RRG.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Just like Motti being dead strips the extra hull from ships. Wether he explodes or just hasn’t turned up yet.

Needa triggers the start of the first round. If he is not on the board (presumably due to hyperspace assault) then he does not trigger. Too bad so sad. This is 100% confirmed by FAQ and the only normal-game way Needa can NOT be on the board...

Garm in hyperspace assault does not generate tokens first round. Too bad so sad.

The precedence is right there. It has been confirmed by faq and by email responses, to the point that it’s a “non issue” anymore ?

if we go by the statement that there is no rule for or against it specifically..... let us play precedence wars... I’ve found a precedent for my interpretation and ruling.... balls in your court to do the same for yours ?

Personally I think you are misinterpreting the FAQ. Placing a round counter on an upgrade card is simply not an effect in and of itself, and is therefore not covered by the passage quoted. The placing of the round counter on the card is just determining at what point in the future that effect will occur. The FAQ does not actually say what you seem to think it does; it does not support your view.

Neither is swapping a defence token an effect - the effect is the actual use of the replacement token.

It is not a question of precedence and I'm not aware of the content the emails you mention. For me it is a question of semantics (as I have already described), and to a lesser extent logic.

You say that putting a round counter on a card is an effect - by what definition of "effect" do you draw that conclusion? And what, in game terms, would be the problem of placing a round token on a card when a ship is not on the table - what undesirable result would it have that it would necessitate its proscription? For true effects I can see that allowing them in such circumstances would cause problems, and the FAQ does address that.

Does what I have written not seem logical to you? If it is not, then please point out my error.

Thanks in anticipation.

The Effect use and timing part of the rule book.

effects use wording such as “after”

Ergo, it is an effect.

effect use and timinG

Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specifed within the effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section.

• An“after”effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

10 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Personally I think you are misinterpreting the FAQ. Placing a round counter on an upgrade card is simply not an effect in and of itself, and is therefore not covered by the passage quoted. The placing of the round counter on the card is just determining at what point in the future that effect will occur. The FAQ does not actually say what you seem to think it does; it does not support your view.

Neither is swapping a defence token an effect - the effect is the actual use of the replacement token.

It is not a question of precedence and I'm not aware of the content the emails you mention. For me it is a question of semantics (as I have already described), and to a lesser extent logic.

You say that putting a round counter on a card is an effect - by what definition of "effect" do you draw that conclusion? And what, in game terms, would be the problem of placing a round token on a card when a ship is not on the table - what undesirable result would it have that it would necessitate its proscription? For true effects I can see that allowing them in such circumstances would cause problems, and the FAQ does address that.

Does what I have written not seem logical to you? If it is not, then please point out my error.

Thanks in anticipation.

You're confusing effects, timings, and abilities.

Anyway, as pointed out to you by Olaph, the FAQ very clearly states that cards which have been set aside are not active - meaning that their texts are simply ignored and not resolved.

Well, I withdraw from this unequal struggle. However I remain convinced that you are wilfully misinterpreting/misrepresenting the wording. You are stating what you want it to say rather than what it does say. The field is yours.

1 hour ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Well, I withdraw from this unequal struggle. However I remain convinced that you are wilfully misinterpreting/misrepresenting the wording. You are stating what you want it to say rather than what it does say. The field is yours.

I like that he omits the basis for the inequality- experience? Familiarity with the rules? There are some more derogatory possibilities I’ll just gesture toward.

Anyway, if it were a confire token there’d be no doubt that a line of text that places it is an “ability,” right? The principle you seem to be struggling with is that a round token can be an asset instead of a bookkeeping device, but that’s absolutely its role with Bail.

1 hour ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

You are stating what you want it to say rather than what it does say. The field is yours.

"After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card. At the start of the round matching that rounded token, if you are second player, you must activate. If you are the first player you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice."

Bail is an upgrade. He has an effect. The effect is what his wordings says. Effects have timings and requirements. Placing a round token is an effect provided from Bail. It has also a timing. If you cannot resolve that effective due to whatever (discarded, unfulfilled requirements, wrong timings, set-aside) you don't. In this case, due to its particular timing, the only possibility to don't resolve that effect are two:

1. The ship is set-aside so the upgrade is not active. As long as it remains this way you cannot resolve it.

2. The player choose to not resolve it as resolving an upgrade is optional.

That's is what the card say: after deployment.

Rules involved and precedences:

Bail's wording

"After deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card. At the start of the round matching that rounded token, if you are second player, you must activate. If you are the first player you may gain up to 2 command tokens of your choice."

Effect use and timings

"Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section."

"An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event."

Setup

"6. Deploy Ships:"

FAQ about setup

Q: During Setup, can ships and squadrons resolve card effects
before they have been deployed?
A: Yes. During Setup, ships and squadrons that have not yet
been deployed are in play, and their ship, squadron, and
upgrade cards are active, unless that ship or squadron has
been destroyed or set aside.

HA's FAQ

Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities.

GSR FAQ

After deploying fleets, if the ship with this card equipped is not in play (because it has been set aside), that ship’s owner cannot resolve the remainder of this card’s effects.

7 minutes ago, OlaphOfTheNorth said:

I like that he omits the basis for the inequality- experience? Familiarity with the rules? There are some more derogatory possibilities I’ll just gesture toward.

Anyway, if it were a confire token there’d be no doubt that a line of text that places it is an “ability,” right? The principle you seem to be struggling with is that a round token can be an asset instead of a bookkeeping device, but that’s absolutely its role with Bail.

Well, if it's petty name-calling you want to sink to, you can count me out. You know nothing about my experience or anything else about me for that matter.

5 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Effect use and timings

"Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section."

Thank you for taking the time to compose a very thorough response. However at the centre of it all is exactly the point I am trying to make, which is that the round counter is simply the timing of the effect and not the effect itself. Can that passage be interpreted in any other way? Either way, thanks again, you're a gentlesheep!

Placing the round counter is a different effect; cards can have more than one. This is a pretty simple situation that everyone else here seems to apprehend pretty fully, and if i’m getting acerbic it’s because seeing one of the most respected TOs in the game repeatedly explain it to you and having you say “I disagree” while being unwilling or unable to cite any grounds for that disagreement beyond your inability to see past your own opinion is a bit frustrating.

You’ve somehow got it in your head that there can be more than one kind of “not in play,” which is a really strange outcome for an argument based on the natural use of language to generate.

(Also there’s some possibility I’m just a naturally cantankerous individual, jury’s still out)

9 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Well, if it's petty name-calling you want to sink to, you can count me out. You know nothing about my experience or anything else about me for that matter.

Thank you for taking the time to compose a very thorough response. However at the centre of it all is exactly the point I am trying to make, which is that the round counter is simply the timing of the effect and not the effect itself. Can that passage be interpreted in any other way? Either way, thanks again, you're a gentlesheep!

OK. Now I think I understand what you say. I disagree though.

Note that the round token is not a timing. The timing is the start of the ship phase of the round matching the round token.

Also, placing the round token is different from checking the round token matching. Bail instruct you to place a round token on it and you can only do it on an specific timing.

48 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Bail instruct you to place a round token on it and you can only do it on an specific timing.

This is the important point here.

The only reason you're able to do that "preparation" on the card is because an effect generated by the card permits you to do so: "you may place 1 round token on this card." That effect has a narrowly defined timing: "after deploying fleets," which is defined in the RRG as "immediately after."

The rules are written permissively: if the RRG or a game component does not tell you that you may do something, you may not do it within the rules of the game. So unless you can find a "prepare all of your cards, even inactive ones" phase, trigger, component, or rule, there is no permission to do so.

Therefore, if the card is not in play during that timing window--namely, immediately after deploying fleets--there is no opportunity for the effect to trigger.

As others pointed out, the FAQ addresses that a ship or squadron that is set aside is not in play and its upgrade cards are not active. Even if we were somehow able to justify not defining this as an effect, that is the same terminology used to describe the cards equipped to destroyed ships:

RRG pg 5 DESTROYED SHIPS AND SQUADRONS

Quote

All ship and upgrade cards belonging to destroyed ships are inactive.

and to discarded cards:

RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING

Quote

When a card is discarded or flipped facedown, its effect is no longer active in the game.