both myself and the games master worked in tandem to make this as both of us fond conflict, and to an extent the force dice, underwhelming

Not a fan, personally. First off, you made the Dark Side stronger in terms of pips on the Force Die. I've always been happy with the F&D Dice having more faces that show Dark Side, but overall having the same number of Light and Dark Side pips. This is in line with Yoda's statement about the Dark Side not being stronger, just quicker. It doesn't necessarily give you more pips over time, it just gives you pips more often . I wouldn't change the die.

As for your perks, they're kind of all over the place to me. Below 30 adds a black pip, yet below 20 removes one? Why would going farther down the Dark Path weaken your ability to use the Dark Side? And below 30 adds +2 strain and +2 wound, yet below 10 removes a strain and wound? Dark Side users are going to want to stay in that 21-30 range for the entire duration of their time on the Dark Side, and that just seems nonsensical to me. Also, what are "dark side conflict dice" and "light side conflict dice," as mentioned in the Above 60 and Below 40 sections?

The 70-30 range, I think, bothers me the most. Take conflict for using both Light and Dark Side points? So you take conflict for literally every single time you use the Force? That just doesn't make any sense. How does one work their way toward the Light Side if every single use of the Force pushes you farther toward the Dark Side? And requiring no Destiny Point flip or strain usage for using Light or Dark just makes distinguishing between the two meaningless until you inevitably wind up below 30.

Sorry, but I'm just really not a fan of this set-up. I agree that Force and Destiny needs some house-ruling in a few areas, but I see these rules hurting the game far more than helping it. But hey, if it works for your table, have fun with it.

21 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Not a fan, personally. First off, you made the Dark Side stronger in terms of pips on the Force Die. I've always been happy with the F&D Dice having more faces that show Dark Side, but overall having the same number of Light and Dark Side pips. This is in line with Yoda's statement about the Dark Side not being stronger, just quicker. It doesn't necessarily give you more pips over time, it just gives you pips more often . I wouldn't change the die.

As for your perks, they're kind of all over the place to me. Below 30 adds a black pip, yet below 20 removes one? Why would going farther down the Dark Path weaken your ability to use the Dark Side? And below 30 adds +2 strain and +2 wound, yet below 10 removes a strain and wound? Dark Side users are going to want to stay in that 21-30 range for the entire duration of their time on the Dark Side, and that just seems nonsensical to me. Also, what are "dark side conflict dice" and "light side conflict dice," as mentioned in the Above 60 and Below 40 sections?

The 70-30 range, I think, bothers me the most. Take conflict for using both Light and Dark Side points? So you take conflict for literally every single time you use the Force? That just doesn't make any sense. How does one work their way toward the Light Side if every single use of the Force pushes you farther toward the Dark Side? And requiring no Destiny Point flip or strain usage for using Light or Dark just makes distinguishing between the two meaningless until you inevitably wind up below 30.

Sorry, but I'm just really not a fan of this set-up. I agree that Force and Destiny needs some house-ruling in a few areas, but I see these rules hurting the game far more than helping it. But hey, if it works for your table, have fun with it.

i probably should have explained this better in the OP

so the dark side perks comes for a in-universe observation with many dark side apprentices rivaling their masters in terms of power, so the way i design it was that a dark side user gets all the perks early but then loses them over time.

the conflict dice are just like die used right now but instead of only drawing you to the light they draw you to which ever end you happen to be closer to “Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.” this makes the dark side's "place of power" unsustainable while allowing the light side paragons more wiggle room with theirs

instead of having a conflict dice to roll a neutral user will be drawn to light and dark depending on what they use so light side points draw you to the light side while dark side pulls you from it, as for the other two perks it's designed to make the difference between the force points minimal

I'm with UA599 in that this just looks like an over-complicated mess that's complicated just for the sake of being complicated without really adding anything of value.

Even the second clarification post makes it sound more like an attempt to meta-game the system and become more powerful a Force user sooner without having to focus as much on Force Rating increases than any sort of "improvement" on the existing rules.

1 hour ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

I'm with UA599 in that this just looks like an over-complicated mess that's complicated just for the sake of being complicated without really adding anything of value.

Even the second clarification post makes it sound more like an attempt to meta-game the system and become more powerful a Force user sooner without having to focus as much on Force Rating increases than any sort of "improvement" on the existing rules.

i really don't see what is overly complicated about this. this is an interpretation of a few in-universe quotes and lore that i truly don't believe that the current balance view adheres to

“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.” the dark side conflict dice pulls you towards the dark side and makes it hard to escape it.

dark side apprentices rivaling their masters in terms of power. this is delivered with the fact that dark side perks start strong but diminish over time

L-"is the darkside stronger?" Y-"No. quicker, easier, more seductive." this says to me that the dark side is supposed to be more powerful now (aka. on the dice)

and even the next line L- "But how will i know the the good side from the bad?" Y- " you will know...when you are calm, at peace, passive." shows that it is hard to tell the difference between the two until you become more attuned with one side or the other hence neutral perks

everything in-universe says that the dark side is a NOW force like a stick of tnt while the light side is more sustained like a candle, we have tried to redesign the force mechanics to better represent this, but this is your choice whether you use it or not, i have had fun useing this so far

First off, how did you do that table here? That would be extremely useful for me!

But secondly and more importantly, I wonder if you've done the math on how changing the die is going to affect things? Because this setup? This means that the Dark Side is now, ever, and always stronger than the light. It will never be a contest. If all other things are equal (Force rating, powers and talents known), the Dark Side is always stronger.

The only exception would be a Morality 90+ Paragon who is also somehow a neophyte with the Force (Force rating 1). Then, sure. They'll be ever so slightly stronger. But all other combinations mean the dark reigns triumphant.

I've got a thread explaining how to do it; why not calculate it yourself and see?

Conflict for using light side points too? So the only way to get above 70 will be to never use the Force?

I think you misunderstand how the raw conflict system works. Its much simpler then what you have set up.

8 hours ago, Absol197 said:

First off, how did you do that table here? That would be extremely useful for me!

But secondly and more importantly, I wonder if you've done the math on how changing the die is going to affect things? Because this setup? This means that the Dark Side is now, ever, and always stronger than the light. It will never be a contest. If all other things are equal (Force rating, powers and talents known), the Dark Side is always stronger.

The only exception would be a Morality 90+ Paragon who is also somehow a neophyte with the Force (Force rating 1). Then, sure. They'll be ever so slightly stronger. But all other combinations mean the dark reigns triumphant.

I've got a thread explaining how to do it; why not calculate it yourself and see?

I just copy paste from a word doc

I was trying to make the dark side more powerfull on the dice but if you think it's OP what do you think would be a good be a good point to settle where dark side is still more powerful but not OP

8 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

Conflict for using light side points too? So the only way to get above 70 will be to never use the Force?

8 hours ago, TheShard said:

I think you misunderstand how the raw conflict system works. Its much simpler then what you have set up.

Both of you please see the above clarification that clearly states that light side conflict draws you to the light not away from it as the universal conflict dice that only draws you to the light has been bined here as such people need a new way to become lightside paragons

Honestly? Don't change anything. The asymmetrical design of the Force die is one of the most ingenious things that the designers of this game did. Just by shifting the concentration of the pips, they made Yoda's statement that the Light and Dark are equally powerful, but the Dark is easier and more seductive, come to life perfectly.

If I'd suggest any change, it would be this: remove the requirement of spending a Destiny Point and taking strain to use black pips while at a neutral Morality only . What will this do? Well, while starting Force users will still roll the same number of white and black pips across the span of a session, they will have rolls that only generate black pips more often. And, since the thing they need to do is really important , they can use them just this once. Right? I mean, what's two Conflict anyway? Except after three rolls like that, they're at five, six, or even eight Conflict, and they're going down on the Morality scale. But it's nice to succeed at every Force check, right? And eventually they hit 29, and now they're stuck.

Remember, being a Dark sider doesn't remove the fact that you take Conflict from using black pips, it only means that you draw on them without any direct consequences, and you don't change back to being a "Light-sider," naturally drawing on white pips, unless you later hit Paragon (71+), meaning if you hit 29 Morality, you will pretty much be a Dark sider for the rest of the game, because every Force power you use will either cause Conflict (dragging you back down), or require a Destiny Point and 1 strain per white pip. Getting from 29 to 71? That's 42 Morality. In a best-case scenario, that 5 sessions of being an absolute angel, where you'll struggle to use ANY of your Force powers, because even 1 black pip is going to seriously cramp your progress, even risk you backsliding all the way to Dark.

If that's not "...forever...dominat[ing] your Destiny," I don't know what is.

11 hours ago, Absol197 said:

If I'd suggest any change, it would be this: remove the requirement of spending a Destiny Point and taking strain to use black pips while at a neutral Morality only . What will this do? Well, while starting Force users will still roll the same number of white and black pips across the span of a session, they will have rolls that only generate black pips more often. And, since the thing they need to do is really important , they can use them just this once. Right? I mean, what's two Conflict anyway? Except after three rolls like that, they're at five, six, or even eight Conflict, and they're going down on the Morality scale. But it's nice to succeed at every Force check, right? And eventually they hit 29, and now they're stuck.

Remember, being a Dark sider doesn't remove the fact that you take Conflict from using black pips, it only means that you draw on them without any direct consequences, and you don't change back to being a "Light-sider," naturally drawing on white pips, unless you later hit Paragon (71+), meaning if you hit 29 Morality, you will pretty much be a Dark sider for the rest of the game, because every Force power you use will either cause Conflict (dragging you back down), or require a Destiny Point and 1 strain per white pip. Getting from 29 to 71? That's 42 Morality. In a best-case scenario, that 5 sessions of being an absolute angel, where you'll struggle to use ANY of your Force powers, because even 1 black pip is going to seriously cramp your progress, even risk you backsliding all the way to Dark.

If that's not "...forever...dominat[ing] your Destiny," I don't know what is.

Of the current system, I'd still suggest keeping the strain cost, as it's something of a brake on Force user PCs and keeping them from too freely relying upon their powers (something that prior SWRPGs have all struggled with in some form). I can see dispensing with the Destiny Point requirement though, as that can feel like too steep a price at times on top of the strain and conflict suffered (more so if you've got a GM that insists that it's one Destiny Point per pip converted).

With Yoda's line about how surrendering to the dark side would "forever dominate your Destiny," as wise as he was I think that line also needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Redemption isn't impossible (Vader proved that), but it sure as heck isn't and shouldn't be easy, which is something that the existing Morality mechanic does cover; once you dip below 30 Morality, that PC is a dark sider until they get their Morality above 70, and with the choice of taking strain for using white pips or simply earning conflict for using the more readily available black pips, that can make the progress to redemption painfully slow. More so if the GM uses a method that slows Morality gains, such as only rolling at the end of each adventure (my preference) or using a smaller die type (d8 seems pretty common)

As far as Yoda''s line about the dark side dominating ones destiny, the developers accounted for that in the game rules. Just because you achieve a morality of 70+ as a dark side character doesn't mean you are now a light side character. It also can require a narrative element, as suggested in the morality section of the f&d core rules. Also it's a struggle to get back to the light from the dark by the way the raw system works.