Me and @CaribbeanNinja played Sensor Net the other day.

The wording is curious - it seems to imply that picking up a token isn't voluntary.

In this it's worded differently from, say, Dangerous Territory. DT uses the 'may' term.

Objectives are not normal upgrades. They are not voluntary to resolve, are they? If it doesn't say 'may' it's actually a must, np? Otherwise stuff like Minefield won't trigger, as the player would just decline to trigger them.

So what sayeth ye? Voluntary or not?

I'm pretty sure its NOT voluntary.

(if you can't understand why you might want to not pick up a token, move along)

DT is certainly a May.

the others are not on first blush... if... it were not for our jamming field precedence...

But of course, what’s the point of having may then?

I don’t think it’s intended to be voluntary.

And with Sensor, the one you claim isn’t necessarily the one to be moved, when a choice between multiple is involved...

Re:reading it now... I'd go with nope its not voluntary as all the wording is 'when' & 'then' not 'if' or 'may'

3 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

Re:reading it now... I'd go with nope its not voluntary as all the wording is 'when' & 'then' not 'if' or 'may'

Aah, But “When” inherently has a may in it, that’s why Jamming Field had to be errata ‘d, no?

eh, pretty sure it’s overdoing it...

upgrades are voluntary.

Objectives are not.

Unless it specifies May, it’s non-voluntary.

When can be either a permissive or an absolute word... depending on context ...which is why jamming field had to be errata'd to remove the permissive context IIRC....

**** confusing language!

2 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

When can be either a permissive or an absolute word... depending on context ...which is why jamming field had to be errata'd to remove the permissive context IIRC....

**** confusing language!

Not quite. Jamming firld was errata'd because every upgrade card is optional unless it uses the word "musr", or "cannot".

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Jamming firld was errata'd because every upgrade card is optional unless it uses the word "must", or "cannot" .

Well, unless "otherwise specified". It doesn't have to use those specific terms - although it certainly helps.

But yeah, indeed, that's only for upgrade cards.

When it comes to other cards...

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Unless it specifies May, it’s non-voluntary.

This.

Ok, so we're in agreement.

@CaribbeanNinja question has been answered.

It would appear that the opposing player MUST move the token, but in either 1st or 2nd player case the minimum distance is 1, so they could choose to "move" it back to it's current location (things are at range 1 of themselves).

Yes. It's picked up, and placed anywhere within a circle of radius 2 (1st) or 4 (2nd) centered on its previous location. It's perfectly legal to put it right back where it was.

@Green Knight now you got your answer could you tell me why I might be interested on not taking a token?

I am really curious.

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

@Green Knight now you got your answer could you tell me why I might be interested on not taking a token?

I am really curious.

My opponent once played and didn't take a token. When I took my first two tokens he moved them far behind my ships knocking them out of the game. When he declined to take his tokens I couldn't move them near my ships. so later I arrive at the 2 tokens he refused to take and grabbed them and once again he moved them far behind my ships. After a battle pass he had a ship approach one of these tokens and refused to take it knowing that I could move it distance 4 and grab it again with one of mine. Eventually on the last turn I was so far away that he did take one of them with a flotilla. Net result I was 45 points up. Compare that to Contested outpost or Intel sweep and I think it paid off for him.

15 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

@Green Knight now you got your answer could you tell me why I might be interested on not taking a token?

I am really curious.

Bc the moment I take a token, it jumps distance 4 into his ball of flotillas, where it's shuffled around by vcx squads. That's a lot of points given away.

Madcat...

Even if it was optional to take the victory token, moving the objective token isn't a choice. The owner of the ship triggering the effect still has to pick an objective token and their opponent gets to move it. "Then..." is not a conditional. It just means "do this next".

3 hours ago, RobertK said:

Madcat...

Even if it was optional to take the victory token, moving the objective token isn't a choice. The owner of the ship triggering the effect still has to pick an objective token and their opponent gets to move it. "Then..." is not a conditional. It just means "do this next".

I think it's understood that the "Then" effect is only resolved after the "When" effect has triggered*.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you in practical terms - but it's one more nail in the coffin of the "voluntary" interpretation.

EDIT: To clarify, imagine the ability read "When a ship [...], its owner may gain a victory token. Then, its owner [...]." There would definitely be discussions as to whether the Then effect triggers if the owner chose not to gain the token. Not that I don't think there's a clear answer* to that question - but it would be asked anyway, and many players would play it wrong. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

*: The answer being, of course, that with the hypothetical wording, the "When" effect is that the player makes a choice . The "Then" effect therefore triggers regardless of the choice made by the player.

1 hour ago, DiabloAzul said:

I think it's understood that the "Then" effect is only resolved after the "When" effect has triggered*.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you in practical terms - but it's one more nail in the coffin of the "voluntary" interpretation.

EDIT: To clarify, imagine the ability read "When a ship [...], its owner may gain a victory token. Then, its owner [...]." There would definitely be discussions as to whether the Then effect triggers if the owner chose not to gain the token. Not that I don't think there's a clear answer* to that question - but it would be asked anyway, and many players would play it wrong. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

*: The answer being, of course, that with the hypothetical wording, the "When" effect is that the player makes a choice . The "Then" effect therefore triggers regardless of the choice made by the player.

Agreed! If people play it wrong, it would be due to adding an implied new conditional statement in front of "Then...". They would have to read it all as...

"When a ship [...], its owner may gain a victory token. If they do , then its owner [...]." Are those underlined words implied? I don't think so. I think the "then..." part happens if the first condition is met, namely that the ship is close enough to an objective token.