The problem is not the cost of Flechette Torpedoes. Its the OPPORTUNITY COST. That's why they're so poor in a wide-field. They end up being worthless and gimping your entire ship in match ups where people don't have squads.

If gladiators had 2 ord slots they wouldn’t be taking flechettes, they’d take APT, ACM, Fire Control Team and either Screed or Vader.

Or one of the above mentioned with external racks.

But definitely not flechettes

A better alternative might have been to put them in the offensive retrofit slot, keeping it as the symbol for squadron-boosting/bashing power. Same thing for the ordnance pods.

I dont think giving Demo a second piece of ordinance is a good plan.

Momentary favorite idea: everyone sleeves their cards, right? When building your list, each ship can sleeve ONE upgrade card with a 'cheaper' (IE., costs fewer points) upgrade that occupies the same slot on its reverse. At the start of any given match, when that ship is deployed, the player may choose to flip that upgrade to the reverse side if he wishes. (Note that this occurs during deployment, so initiative is already determined based on the more expensive side initially equipped - the advantage, here, is merely in being able to swap out a single upgrade per ship for something that may be generally less effective...it has to be lower cost...but possibly more useful for the specific battle at hand)

Xanderf, what you are talking about is more or less a sideboard. And honestly, I could get on board with a sideboard. I’m just unsure of implementation. I think I’d like more even than what you posit. Maybe like, 100 points of sideboard. I dunno.

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Momentary favorite idea: everyone sleeves their cards, right? When building your list, each ship can sleeve ONE upgrade card with a 'cheaper' (IE., costs fewer points) upgrade that occupies the same slot on its reverse. At the start of any given match, when that ship is deployed, the player may choose to flip that upgrade to the reverse side if he wishes. (Note that this occurs during deployment, so initiative is already determined based on the more expensive side initially equipped - the advantage, here, is merely in being able to swap out a single upgrade per ship for something that may be generally less effective...it has to be lower cost...but possibly more useful for the specific battle at hand)

Interesting idea, would be great for a casual game, but isn’t the reason for having a point limit on list building to force people into tough choices. We all try to maximize our fleets to deal with every threat, and that is part of the skill and fun of this game. No one list is great at everything, you have to make compromises and then use your skill as a player to cover those compromises.

I think maybe the reason people never put Flechette Torpedoes on the Gladiator is because it doesn't have black anti-squad dice...

Hmmmm. @Blail Blerg

Chimera style upgrade in the form of an weapon team slot. Lets you swap out between 2 different ordnance upgrades decided at the start of a match.

39 minutes ago, mcworrell said:

Interesting idea, would be great for a casual game, but isn’t the reason for having a point limit on list building to force people into tough choices. We all try to maximize our fleets to deal with every threat, and that is part of the skill and fun of this game. No one list is great at everything, you have to make compromises and then use your skill as a player to cover those compromises.

Not if you need to pay the points for both.

1 hour ago, xanderf said:

Momentary favorite idea: everyone sleeves their cards, right? When building your list, each ship can sleeve ONE upgrade card with a 'cheaper' (IE., costs fewer points) upgrade that occupies the same slot on its reverse. At the start of any given match, when that ship is deployed, the player may choose to flip that upgrade to the reverse side if he wishes. (Note that this occurs during deployment, so initiative is already determined based on the more expensive side initially equipped - the advantage, here, is merely in being able to swap out a single upgrade per ship for something that may be generally less effective...it has to be lower cost...but possibly more useful for the specific battle at hand)

First, no everyone does not sleeve their cards, but besides that I do not know how it would affect the tournament play I do not see any reason for it in casual play. Now if it became a rule I am not against it, just do not do tournaments and see no reason in casual.

48 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Hmmmm. @Blail Blerg

Chimera style upgrade in the form of an weapon team slot. Lets you swap out between 2 different ordnance upgrades decided at the start of a match.

Oh true. That reminds me adding Kallus instead of IO or SFO just makes the opportunity cost even higher and the Demo even worse vs ships.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

Oh true. That reminds me adding Kallus instead of IO or SFO just makes the opportunity cost even higher and the Demo even worse vs ships.

Yea and Kallus is the only way to get the black dice for Flechettes on Glads.

But yea. 0 point weapons team but you have to pay for both ordnance upgrades. You take two upgrades and can swap between the two in the ship phase. But I don't think Glads are the best option for Flechette torpedoes.

Just now, TallGiraffe said:

Yea and Kallus is the only way to get the black dice for Flechettes on Glads.

But yea. 0 point weapons team but you have to pay for both ordnance upgrades. You take two upgrades and can swap between the two in the ship phase. But I don't think Glads are the best option for Flechette torpedoes.

I still think GSD2 with Kallus and FT is fun. For the very simple reason of being able to lock down Aces, which Rieekan and rebel lists take a lot of. OE and a CF dial/token make it pretty easy to score FT on 3 or so aces. Its just.... so incredibly terrible in ALL other anti-ship roles: the one extra red dice cant be rerolled with OE, its more expensive, you lose IO or SFO, and you lose ER for FT.

9 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I still think GSD2 with Kallus and FT is fun. For the very simple reason of being able to lock down Aces, which Rieekan and rebel lists take a lot of. OE and a CF dial/token make it pretty easy to score FT on 3 or so aces. Its just.... so incredibly terrible in ALL other anti-ship roles: the one extra red dice cant be rerolled with OE, its more expensive, you lose IO or SFO, and you lose ER for FT.

Just take two Gladiators?

17 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Just take two Gladiators?

Can you show me where in this whole wide world people have had good results with two gladiators in wave6? I mean, other factors of competitiveness not withstanding... someone's gotta have done it and won with it right?

(PS: I've tried it. Its harder than you think.)

A question, have you tried it??

2 hours ago, mcworrell said:

Interesting idea, would be great for a casual game, but isn’t the reason for having a point limit on list building to force people into tough choices. We all try to maximize our fleets to deal with every threat, and that is part of the skill and fun of this game. No one list is great at everything, you have to make compromises and then use your skill as a player to cover those compromises.

Ergo, the limit on only a single card, and one of LESSER (not equal) value.

Presuming things are more-or-less balanced for their points, it means you are intentionally substituting something worth less generally, because it might help more in your current situation than what you'd planned to bring (which, obviously, you lose).

Try the idea out in a few builds - I think you'll find surprisingly few cases where it is overpowering. I mean, take this example - you brought a Gladiator-Demo build with APT (5 pts) that has flechette (3 pts) on its reverse. You see you are facing a 134-pt fighter swarm backed by Yavaris. So...flip the APT to Flechette? ...or try to use the superior APT to kill the carrier first? You can't do both...but maybe, depending on the rest of the composition of your list, giving up the APT for flechette makes the most of a bad situation...

Only one upgrade per ship also makes the choice more complex. I mean, even something as having a ship with Gunnery Teams on one side of a flip to Flight Controllers...sure, that lets you pivot to squadron support if it turns out you desperately need that...but it also means you built your list to take advantage of gunnery teams and now don't have gunnery teams.

Relatedly: My Home One is missing a Weapons Team slot and my Cymoon seems to have lost its Defensive Retrofit

Thread reported

Oh they can have two ord slots, but their speed 1 now with one click.

Yes please, I really want to see Demo with external racks and APTs.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Can you show me where in this whole wide world people have had good results with two gladiators in wave6? I mean, other factors of competitiveness not withstanding... someone's gotta have done it and won with it right?

(PS: I've tried it. Its harder than you think.)

A question, have you tried it??

I have wave 5 to some success. But wave 7?

Challenge accepted.

2 hours ago, TheCallum said:

Yes please, I really want to see Demo with external racks and APTs.

You are thinking small.

Screed APT ACM Fire Control Teams

Or External Racks Expanded Launchers

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Can you show me where in this whole wide world people have had good results with two gladiators in wave6? I mean, other factors of competitiveness not withstanding... someone's gotta have done it and won with it right?

(PS: I've tried it. Its harder than you think.)

A question, have you tried it??

This got me into qualifying rounds for the Vassal World Cup. Also won an SC with it and placed 3rd with a variant that had dropped a Raider for Ciena+Valen. ***** all over bomber lists because I can out activate them and I can use Demo, both Raiders, and GT off the Vic to attack squads very efficiently. I've lost maybe 3 or 4 times with this list of the 3 dozen or so times I've played it.

Name: Dual Glads + Vic
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation: Solar Corona

Victory II (85)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Minister Tua (2)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 137 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Demolisher (10)
= 75 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Insidious (3)
= 68 Points

Raider I (44)
• External Racks (3)
= 47 Points

Raider I (44)
• External Racks (3)
= 47 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

Total Points: 399

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Can you show me where in this whole wide world people have had good results with two gladiators in wave6? I mean, other factors of competitiveness not withstanding... someone's gotta have done it and won with it right?

(PS: I've tried it. Its harder than you think.)

A question, have you tried it??

I won the last store champs I went to with a three glad list....but arguably, that was before Sloane. Altough I've modified that very same list to include her, and haven't lost with it yet.

Glad, Sloane, apt, sfo, oe

glad, demo, apt, oe, Intel officer

glad, insidious, apt, oe, sfo

goz, expanded hangars, comms net

goz, expanded hangars

Marek plus five Defenders

most wanted, dangerous territory, hyperspace assault