How about 7 Raiders, Screed, FTs and OEs on ALL of them, Tua + EWS, Instigator, Kallus and a 9 point bid?

I got it.

A ship that is extremely resistant to single dice attacks but nearly defenseless when hit with three or more dice.

Extremely wide side-arcs with three shields each, narrow front and rear arcs with one shield each, and four Redirects. Give it a Weapons Team and Ordnance slot so you can run Flechettes and Ordnance Experts. Three, maybe four hull?

Attack it with squadrons and it could redirect up to 8 damage. Attack it with a Demolisher or an MC30 and you have a decent chance of one-shotting it.

Moderately kitted out it would cost somewhere in the range of 60 points?

38 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Okay so, you were talking about light screen vs no squads. Which is changing the subject on what I was talking about. But I'm talking about a light screen having no advantage or _increased efficiency_ to holding off a max squads outmatch.

Continuing in your own line of thought: vs 8-10 squads, the max player will ALSO have another set OR TWO of deployments over a light screen list. Plus that the archetype easily allows 2+4, which is not easy for ship based lists to match, barring mc30s, which are one of the best ships in the game.

Second, you have to be taking very cheap squadrons to actually save on a deployment compared to a flotilla: 14 vs 18, and 16 vs 23. And if you're a light screen, that makes your screen smaller and much easier to kill, which is why 6 ties is not considered a strong enough screen. People on YOUR side of the argument made that comment that 90 points is actually the point at where 6 squads is enough. Not I. Only in the case of adding 2 ties vs a Gozanti does your point actually make sense: you save a whole SEVEN points. Whooooo what a wonderful advantage.

We can agree to disagree. But I won't agree to allow illogical points to stand. If you have issue with my logic, then let it be known.

Of course. More squads gives more drops. It's only fair and natural.

Anyway, back to original post.

Calling it logic doesn't make it so. Let's call it you opinion, bc that's what it is. And let's be honest - on the subject of squads you're very opinionated. To the point - and this is my claim - where logical discourse isn't really possible.

With that out of the way, let's visit my dear SLOANE.

When I win games with Sloane, and I do win, I take 134 pts of squads, if possible. I also take 266 points of fleet to support those squads. The admiral, every ship and upgrade, they are all there to back up my squads.

That's 400 points of anti-squad coming at your 33 or 55 or whatever points. If that's all you've done, taken a few A-wings, then you've no right to do more than lightly disrupt my operations. Delay the token stripping and the shield plinking.

Same if I do a rebel GHY. The entire list is built to support those squads.

I cannot for the life of me understand why this is a problem, a flaw. How it is illogical.

Now, continuing the example with Sloane, there is some other stuff in the game that makes it VERY hard for non-squad builds to deal with. One is flotilla spam. The more flotillas I take with the ISD, the more drops do I get and the less I need the ISD to command squads with. I also get a lot of activation control.

And bc of Relay abuse, Gozanti can just scatter and run around all game. Or I can use them as blockers if I need to - as we all know flotillas can be laughably hard to kill if used right.

So now I have 134 pts of squads, an entire fleet build to make them even better, AND I'm abusing both FLOT SPAM and RELAY.

IS there problem here that hvy squad beats light squad? I don't think so. It's just right. Spot on.

IS there are problem with flotillas and relay, when couple with the above. Yeah, I think so. It's gotten really stale, and there are few drawbacks and not enough counters.

Wasn't going to reply to this... but I guess I did anyway.

Oh, and for the record I'm doing an all-ship fleet now. Vader in his Cymoon, with Demo and 4 Mighty Gozanti. It's trampling everything, including Sloane relay, Bee swarms, whatever. It's not foolproof, but it goes to show there are more ways to play this game then 134 pts in squads.

Oh, and not ALL tourneys are won by squad heavy.

Not sure how much this adds to the conversation, but I'm surprised it doesn't come up more in these conversations. For context, I'm an "anti-squadron-er" myself, they are the least enjoyable thing about this game to me. As such, I've been searching for the ways to win without them.

My new best friend is Early Warning Systems. Might as well staple that to my ISD2 cards, because I don't see running one without it for the time being. Yes, squads can jump to the side of that big arc, but they aren't doing that early (turn 1 on some occasions...). Seems to me that, combined with the right fleet and approach to the game, EWS is going to slaughter some squad lists. Try to get your B-Wings into my side arcs while keeping carriers out of range of both my ISD2s, I don't see it happening.

If someone spent 134 points in squadrons and I only spend 30 in squadrons I would expect them to wreck the board in some form, when flown right. That's like an ISD going up against a CR90 point wise....would you expect the CR90 to hold its own? No. It gets obliterated.

20 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Oh, and for the record I'm doing an all-ship fleet now. Vader in his Cymoon, with Demo and 4 Mighty Gozanti. It's trampling everything, including Sloane relay, Bee swarms, whatever. It's not foolproof, but it goes to show there are more ways to play this game then 134 pts in squads.

Oh, and not ALL tourneys are won by squad heavy.

Curious what your anti-squadron strategy is. Demo can be tricky to get into position and out alive against a Yavaris fighter swarm if you don't have first player and activation advantage.

4 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

If someone spent 134 points in squadrons and I only spend 30 in squadrons I would expect them to wreck the board in some form, when flown right. That's like an ISD going up against a CR90 point wise....would you expect the CR90 to hold its own? No. It gets obliterated.

I don't think that's the OP's point.

Rather, at least how I read it, the concern is more than there is no way to counter squadrons other than the exact opposite number of squadrons . IE., no, nobody is expecting a list with no squadrons and no meaningful plan to deal with squadrons to be able to handle 134 pts of squadrons coming at them. But that shouldn't mean you have to take 134 pts of squadrons, yourself. If you take 30 pts, and kit out your ship with a modest amount of anti-squadron defenses, you should be able to get yourself to a point where you can counter the pure-squadron swarm without yourself needing to copy it.

At the moment, that's not really possible. Maybe the upgrades coming in wave 7 will make it easier to? They do have a bit of an uphill fight...

Just now, Valca said:

Curious what your anti-squadron strategy is. Demo can be tricky to get into position and out alive against a Yavaris fighter swarm if you don't have first player and activation advantage.

Demolisher is expendable. It's a prowling threat, ready to pounce, and not afraid to die.

The rest of the list is about setting up the Cymoon for last/first. Doesn't have to be a literal last first. The isd is also very good at removing clothes and corvettes and the like, creating activation advantage.

Relay flotilla spam fleets are oc tricky to deal with. There is no denying that.

But it's very fun ?

8 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

Not sure how much this adds to the conversation, but I'm surprised it doesn't come up more in these conversations. For context, I'm an "anti-squadron-er" myself, they are the least enjoyable thing about this game to me. As such, I've been searching for the ways to win without them.

My new best friend is Early Warning Systems. Might as well staple that to my ISD2 cards, because I don't see running one without it for the time being. Yes, squads can jump to the side of that big arc, but they aren't doing that early (turn 1 on some occasions...). Seems to me that, combined with the right fleet and approach to the game, EWS is going to slaughter some squad lists. Try to get your B-Wings into my side arcs while keeping carriers out of range of both my ISD2s, I don't see it happening.

They are pretty good vs ships too! Anything that wants to double arc especially. I love these ews things ?

2 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I don't think that's the OP's point.

Rather, at least how I read it, the concern is more than there is no way to counter squadrons other than the exact opposite number of squadrons . IE., no, nobody is expecting a list with no squadrons and no meaningful plan to deal with squadrons to be able to handle 134 pts of squadrons coming at them. But that shouldn't mean you have to take 134 pts of squadrons, yourself. If you take 30 pts, and kit out your ship with a modest amount of anti-squadron defenses, you should be able to get yourself to a point where you can counter the pure-squadron swarm without yourself needing to copy it.

At the moment, that's not really possible. Maybe the upgrades coming in wave 7 will make it easier to? They do have a bit of an uphill fight...

But that's the core of the problem. A light squad screen and some upgrade buff should NOT be able to do more than slow a fleet built to maximize squads.

The op doesn't agree with this oc, hence this thread.

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I don't think that's the OP's point.

Rather, at least how I read it, the concern is more than there is no way to counter squadrons other than the exact opposite number of squadrons . IE., no, nobody is expecting a list with no squadrons and no meaningful plan to deal with squadrons to be able to handle 134 pts of squadrons coming at them. But that shouldn't mean you have to take 134 pts of squadrons, yourself. If you take 30 pts, and kit out your ship with a modest amount of anti-squadron defenses, you should be able to get yourself to a point where you can counter the pure-squadron swarm without yourself needing to copy it.

At the moment, that's not really possible. Maybe the upgrades coming in wave 7 will make it easier to? They do have a bit of an uphill fight...

If you arent using your flak batteries or using your squadron screen properly thats your own fault. I can see how relay gets abused because the carrier can turtle in a corner while throwing squadron commands with impunity but you can still slow them down effectively if played right as with anything in this game.

Also to add to my experience on this, my meta had to deal with the @Brikhause acehole list. I am also not a squadron player, I prefer big ships with lotsa dice!

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

The isd is also very good at removing clothes and corvettes and the like, creating activation advantage.

How can I get my ISDs to remove clothes? That seems pretty powerful and definitely versatile .

1 minute ago, xanderf said:

I don't think that's the OP's point.

Rather, at least how I read it, the concern is more than there is no way to counter squadrons other than the exact opposite number of squadrons . IE., no, nobody is expecting a list with no squadrons and no meaningful plan to deal with squadrons to be able to handle 134 pts of squadrons coming at them. But that shouldn't mean you have to take 134 pts of squadrons, yourself. If you take 30 pts, and kit out your ship with a modest amount of anti-squadron defenses, you should be able to get yourself to a point where you can counter the pure-squadron swarm without yourself needing to copy it.

At the moment, that's not really possible. Maybe the upgrades coming in wave 7 will make it easier to? They do have a bit of an uphill fight...

Every fleet needs an anti-squadron plan, just like every fleet needs an anti-MSU plan or anti-big heavy ship(s) plan. That doesn't have to be an equal pile of squadrons (although it can be). That can very well be "kill the carriers" or "rely on flak in combination with a smaller fighter screen" or "use these specific squads to tie up enemy squads for a while and/or scalpel out the really dangerous ones and then just put up with the surviving squads later while I use my ship advantage to win" or whatever.

I think @Green Knight hit it on the head that currently the game's issue isn't squadrons. The game's issue is Relay and flotilla spam (usually in combination), which can enable some lower-risk squadron play that has less obvious counters. The squadrons themselves are largely fine at this point and a big investment in squadrons should be better at the squadron mini-game than a smaller investment in squadrons. For it to be otherwise flies in the face of a points system.

Re: light screen not being enough vs large investment in squads;

What form would a fix for that take that doesn’t also benefit that large scale squadron force as much if not more, or completely negate squadrons altogether?

I mean, @Blail Blerg mentioned part of the issue being that a dedicated squadron force blows through a screen in 1-2 turns. Its a six turn game, and the first one generally sees no engagment. How long should a light screen be able to hold off a dedicated force before we’ve made squadrons ineffectual? Philosophically, to me, 1-2 turns while my theoretically stronger gunships do their work seems about right.

My issue with squadrons at this point in time remains Relay. Too easy to use, and too hard to neutralize. And as was previously mentioned, allows the carriers to fulfill their man function without incurring any risk. If the relay squads were like, hull 3, this wouldnt be an issue, but they’re not.

19 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

The isd is also very good at removing clothes...

1 minute ago, Madaghmire said:

Re: light screen not being enough vs large investment in squads;

If the relay squads were like, hull 3, this wouldnt be an issue, but they’re not.

1

100% agree with this. Not sure why these squads have such high hull points because they are built for speed or comfort not combat.

8 minutes ago, rasproteus said:

FLOTILLAS **** YOU ?

Oh, I thought this thread was about 60-80pt squad wings being ineffective these days. My bad.

Valen/Ciena. Tycho/Shara are both highly effective combos. They both have means of living longer than normal, special abilities and scatter tokens. This is not easily replicatable in large squad groups as they are all uniques and by definitive cannot be duplicated.

So, I dont understand the discussion here. Those pairings will either earn you more than their points in the squad fight, or buy you more than 30pts worth if time to kill carriers. Whats the issue?

That they cant be boosted by Yavaris? Well of course not, they are boosted by Admonition and Demolisher!

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Oh, I thought this thread was about 60-80pt squad wings being ineffective these days. My bad.

Valen/Ciena. Tycho/Shara are both highly effective combos. They both have means of living longer than normal, special abilities and scatter tokens. This is not easily replicatable in large squad groups as they are all uniques and by definitive cannot be duplicated.

So, I dont understand the discussion here. Those pairings will either earn you more than their points in the squad fight, or buy you more than 30pts worth if time to kill carriers. Whats the issue?

That they cant be boosted by Yavaris? Well of course not, they are boosted by Admonition and Demolisher!

To be honest, I don't see how these two buy you much time at all if the bomber wing includes intelligent intel play. Maybe I'm just bad at defensive squadron play (plausible), but an intel + escort dropped near Ciena, Valen, and Shara are sufficient to allow your bombers to operate with impunity. Tycho can be dealt with by bouncing your intel between him and Shara, allowing your bombers to always attach the target they want to attack.

3 minutes ago, Valca said:

To be honest, I don't see how these two buy you much time at all if the bomber wing includes intelligent intel play. Maybe I'm just bad at defensive squadron play (plausible), but an intel + escort dropped near Ciena, Valen, and Shara are sufficient to allow your bombers to operate with impunity. Tycho can be dealt with by bouncing your intel between him and Shara, allowing your bombers to always attach the target they want to attack.

I see a lot of people activate their pair of squads simultaneously with one squad command. Why?

In most cases these days your opponent can only activate two squads at a time from flotillas. This is crappy and unable to cause any major damage in one activation.

What this means is that you can activate tycho and tie up the majority of the ball, but outside intel range. Now for their squads to bomb they need to shift intel, but if they do so, they know Shara will move in. So what do they do? Watch them and see. 2 at a time they cant kill Tycho if that is their approach. Learn your opponent before using the other 50% of your squadron force.

Using 100% of your squadron force in a single activation is a sign of overexcitment. Calm it..

Reading this makes me think the phantom is useful against intel. When an intel squad activates last to make a bunch of things heavy, the phantom always gets to move and tie up stuff again.

Maybe that is what cloak is meant to represent?

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

A max squad fleet kills no fighter lists and small screen lists (6 squads, under 90 points).

Did @Ardaedhel 's squadron-free, 7-activation MC30 list stop beating max squad lists?

Just now, RobertK said:

Did @Ardaedhel 's squadron-free, 7-activation MC30 list stop beating max squad lists?

Oh why did you have to bring that up?

Enter smug @Ardaedhel ...

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Oh why did you have to bring that up?

Enter smug @Ardaedhel ...

He's too smug to respond.

2 minutes ago, RobertK said:

He's too smug to respond.

No... You just have to say his name three times before he does.

2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Ok, let's just agree to disagree. I hardly recognize the game you're referring to.

I'll back up Green Knight here. There are quite a few statements in the thread that simply run counter to my experience, and that's as someone who ran a light squadron screen for almost all of the pre-nerf phase, and some of the post nerf phase.

That being said, I think there is something to be said for the placement advantage that squadrons give certain kinds of list. But then I run a gun list for which being able to place that last cannon of a ship perfectly is a huge advantage in terms of limiting incoming fire, whether it be from squadrons or enemy ships, and offensively for placing against my opponent's key ships.

I wonder if the timing of the thread is a bit off. Two months ago or even a month ago, sure. There was still probably something to be said for deficiencies in counter strategies in some list archetypes. We've now got all the wave-7 upgrade cards spoiled and the advent of that wave on the table, with as already acknowledged, lots of anti-squadron style upgrades. There are also a number of good cards that seriously help large ships become more prevalent. While I still think Yavaris and squadrons or Sloan and squadrons will be good, is the only possible counter still going to be your sizable squadron force? I could see that answer shifting based on what I've seen on the cards.