This is the BB thread you're looking for. Squadrons. =)

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This is my new tenet that I've been waiting to discuss with the forums: The Triangle is broken: A small screen has no multipliers that allow it to effectively combat a max fighter list, especially taking into account the complete loss in points of the screen AND the points gained in objectives. A max squad fleet kills no fighter lists and small screen lists (6 squads, under 90 points). It will have a difficult time with a full AA style screen above 100 points, or other max multirole fleets., however, you're generally talking something like 1ISD +4 , max Firesprays or Sloane screen 134 nowadays, and at that point, its really two max squads fighting each other, that's not a counter. A counter is not itself!

There is no balance in the force. That's why you see max fighters so prevalently now in tournaments and winning said tournaments.

FFG has started to reign it in by creating anti-squad focused ship upgrades. Note in Wave 7 that there are like 7 different anti-squad usable upgrades, and nearly 0 that buff squadron use.

The next key thing, is to learn how to make cards that are force multipliers, but of a smaller force. Things that allow a smaller force to fend off a larger force. A la military strategy. Atm, its just a pure clusterfk. Whoever has more squadrons, wins by a large margin. Not 300 vs 10000. Not david vs Goliath.

How do you make cards, designs, squadrons that effectively have more power when fighting against larger groups+their heavy multipliers???

Data you should be familiar with.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NR5jNoKNtDX9qHrMHIpDdFl8OzGSOEi_ELJ5ylvu4u4/edit#gid=1449590538

i mentioned this a while ago to you. I struggle a fair bit with this one too so am not going to white knight the topic this time.

I do wonder why sloane is always max squads, and what happened to Rieekan.

Snipe should be part of the equation. Killing certain parts of a large squad force breaks their synergy.

Mauler, Saber, Gar Saxon, Vader should be good, but only 50% are effective anti ship.

Ewings are great, as is Ten Numb. Adar, Toryn, Corran, Ten, Luke, Wedge should be efficient too. Never tried it though.

3 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

i mentioned this a while ago to you. I struggle a fair bit with this one too so am not going to white knight the topic this time.

I do wonder why sloane is always max squads, and what happened to Rieekan.

Snipe should be part of the equation. Killing certain parts of a large squad force breaks their synergy.

Mauler, Saber, Gar Saxon, Vader should be good, but only 50% are effective anti ship.

Ewings are great, as is Ten Numb. Adar, Toryn, Corran, Ten, Luke, Wedge should be efficient too. Never tried it though.

To be real: I've seen the toryn trap used often before, its very good. It works. Its a way of dealing partially with the problem. (Though, I'm unsure it holds up vs full max, it takes a bit of luck and good positioning)

I'll also say the 6 squad AA death squad of those guys is pretty good too. But I think they add up to something like 90-100 points. Which... begs the question, is a "small screen" now 1/4 of your list value and 100 its minimum? And under 90 its basically worthless investment immediately lost?

So, I agree with Snipe, but the same way you deal with them, they can deal with you: If they kill your 3 hull Saber, you lose your big weapon. Vader can only protect form one side. But again mostly, you're just using more squadrons going up to 90+ points to deal with the problem.

Activation control exacerbates the issue of lack of points.

Perhaps something that gives allied squadrons "counts as obstructed" or perhaps Grit or that are immune to Intel when they are outnumbered.

Perhaps a squadron that gains a bonus die or the Bomber keyword when outnumbered on the table yet able to attack a ship.

A squadron that gains counter or a boost to counter or damage mitigation while outnumbered.

Ship upgrades that grant boosts (adds counter, adds to counter, adds to damage taken, adds obstruction) to outnumbered squadrons. A Flight Controllers thing but only if your squadrons fielded is below a certain threshold.

3 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Perhaps something that gives allied squadrons "counts as obstructed" or perhaps Grit or that are immune to Intel when they are outnumbered.

Perhaps a squadron that gains a bonus die or the Bomber keyword when outnumbered on the table yet able to attack a ship.

A squadron that gains counter or a boost to counter or damage mitigation while outnumbered.

Ship upgrades that grant boosts (adds counter, adds to counter, adds to damage taken, adds obstruction) to outnumbered squadrons. A Flight Controllers thing but only if your squadrons fielded is below a certain threshold.

Use of things that force squadrons to not just blob into the most effective space and clusterfk of dmg they can do would be best.

Ten Numb and Mauler do this already, but more options would be nice. Since you can usually tie and kill Mauler's escape route via Intel. With enough squads.

A light squad screen has some advantages. Extra drops being one.

They can do bonus damage to a squad less opponent. Or keep another light squad screen at bay, neutering it.

It can be part of a strategic build.

And contrary to what's often claimed, light squad screens just don't roll over and die. Sure, if you throw them away early, but if you keep them back and commit only when needed, they can mean a big deal.

I've had decent success with this complement against large fighter groups and still has some punch for light or no fighter lists.

1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Black Squadron ( 9 points)
3 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 24 points)

It's 74 points but I almost took out a 103 points of fighters lost a tie and black squdron.at that point Maarek Steele used grit to go harass ships with his buddy jendon.

I'd settle for a high hull value squadron that removes Intel within a certain radius.

3 minutes ago, xero989 said:

I've had decent success with this complement against large fighter groups and still has some punch for light or no fighter lists.

1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Black Squadron ( 9 points)
3 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 24 points)

It's 74 points but I almost took out a 103 points of fighters lost a tie and black squdron.at that point Maarek Steele used grit to go harass ships with his buddy jendon.

Reminder that at meta level, squadron increase by multiplier is MULTIPLICATIVE FUNCTION, not additive function. 74 vs 134 with multipliers is very different. You drop a tie each attack basically. (Like really guys, think math graphs. not additive, multiplicative. I don't think its a low exponential, thankfully).

23 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

A light squad screen has some advantages. Extra drops being one.

They can do bonus damage to a squad less opponent. Or keep another light squad screen at bay, neutering it.

It can be part of a strategic build.

And contrary to what's often claimed, light squad screens just don't roll over and die. Sure, if you throw them away early, but if you keep them back and commit only when needed, they can mean a big deal.

I covered this with my strategic post a long time ago. Did you see it? I agree.

However, I disagree with the "can do bonus damage to a squad less opponent". Break it down: what's "bonus"? You paid DEARLY in points for much less anti-ship firepower. 33 pts for Shara and Tycho for two NONBOMBER black dice? vs say just 2 wings at 28pts. Here's the values: 2 x .75 = 1.5. vs 2 x .75 + 2 x 1 + BCC 2 x .25 x 1 = avg 4 dmg +. No such thing as bonus, its more like compensatory, at a very low rate. You also don't get upgrades you dearly want on your anti-ship ships.

2. You don't need to "keep another light squad screen at bay, neutering it." Think about it. why? What harm will those do to you? Yes, the squadron game exists, you get points form them. But really, their 6 fighter screen is going to put an avg of 4.5 dmg out MAX to you. And yours will do the same. Its a fallacy.

3. "And contrary to what's often claimed, light squad screens just don't roll over and die. Sure, if you throw them away early, but if you keep them back and commit only when needed, they can mean a big deal." - 134 with toryn, jan and other multipliers kills 70 its within 1.2 turns. 90 in about 1.5-2 turns. But BB, git gud! -> Counter: your max squad player gits gud and stops you from delaying by killing your ships, dropping your activation power. Or they wait so they pounce and alpha your squads. Y'know, both sides can git gud. This one neither you or I can be utterly right about - its complicated. But realistically, there's a lot of ways a max squad player can counteract your counter decisions. He can immediately bomb your exposed ships. He can alpha your squadrons. He can ignore and wait for another turn, and win on points, or go for a draw because he won his previous game so hard (people did this a lot in Rieekan meta).

What about high counter value squadrons that can only counter? The only thing they can do is shoot back at other squadrons and engage.

1 minute ago, Frimmel said:

What about high counter value squadrons that can only counter? The only thing they can do is shoot back at other squadrons and engage.

Now that just seems weird. =P

Come attack me!

I feel like the intended strength of the low or no squad fleets is the extra points spent on ships that can kill carriers?

The fact that those carriers might no longer be anywhere near the battle makes that harder. I think the problem stems from relay more than the idea that ships should be able to counter squads on their own.

20 minutes ago, Democratus said:

I'd settle for a high hull value squadron that removes Intel within a certain radius.

Saber is a pretty good squad that tends to remove Intel from certain ships....(by removing that ship). I honestly think people flip out about squadrons too much.

8 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I feel like the intended strength of the low or no squad fleets is the extra points spent on ships that can kill carriers?

The fact that those carriers might no longer be anywhere near the battle makes that harder. I think the problem stems from relay more than the idea that ships should be able to counter squads on their own.

Follow that line of thought through to real life, anecdotally on your own battles vs max squads. and statistically with the Wave5 and Wave6 data. Does that assumption hold true? Can you support it in a data-based fashion?

7 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Now that just seems weird. =P

Come attack me!

Well you were asking for a way for lower totals of squadrons to "win" when significantly outnumbered but this ability needs to "cost" something doesn't it? If this doesn't come with a drawback or limited circumstance where it can be employed...

I generally play 60-80 points in squadrons. For whatever reason 15-20% of my fleet feels about right to me. I've also been plenty successful with that strategy.

Of the Wave 7 stuff I am most excited about EWS (although OP is likely better, just harder to field). I am excited about EWS as it fits the way I already play when I run up against heavy squadron builds. And that is using my ships as bait before counter attacking with my smaller number of squads. There is some inherent risk there, but when I know it is something I plan to do I can time Engineering Commands to take some of the sting out. EWS will help my ships survive as bait longer. While the squads can certainly fly around the EWS arc, it lets me bring more shields in to play with redirects. It also forces them to fly around it, which then takes the squadrons further from the carriers and their support. EWS also helps concentrate squadrons for flak shots in return.

33 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I covered this with my strategic post a long time ago. Did you see it? I agree.

However, I disagree with the "can do bonus damage to a squad less opponent". Break it down: what's "bonus"? You paid DEARLY in points for much less anti-ship firepower. 33 pts for Shara and Tycho for two NONBOMBER black dice? vs say just 2 wings at 28pts. Here's the values: 2 x .75 = 1.5. vs 2 x .75 + 2 x 1 + BCC 2 x .25 x 1 = avg 4 dmg +. No such thing as bonus, its more like compensatory, at a very low rate. You also don't get upgrades you dearly want on your anti-ship ships.

2. You don't need to "keep another light squad screen at bay, neutering it." Think about it. why? What harm will those do to you? Yes, the squadron game exists, you get points form them. But really, their 6 fighter screen is going to put an avg of 4.5 dmg out MAX to you. And yours will do the same. Its a fallacy.

3. "And contrary to what's often claimed, light squad screens just don't roll over and die. Sure, if you throw them away early, but if you keep them back and commit only when needed, they can mean a big deal." - 134 with toryn, jan and other multipliers kills 70 its within 1.2 turns. 90 in about 1.5-2 turns. But BB, git gud! -> Counter: your max squad player gits gud and stops you from delaying by killing your ships, dropping your activation power. Or they wait so they pounce and alpha your squads. Y'know, both sides can git gud. This one neither you or I can be utterly right about - its complicated. But realistically, there's a lot of ways a max squad player can counteract your counter decisions. He can immediately bomb your exposed ships. He can alpha your squadrons. He can ignore and wait for another turn, and win on points, or go for a draw because he won his previous game so hard (people did this a lot in Rieekan meta).

Ok, let's just agree to disagree. I hardly recognize the game you're referring to.

9 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Ok, let's just agree to disagree. I hardly recognize the game you're referring to.

I don't think what you said holds up to logical scrutiny. I hardly recognize the game you're referring to either.

59 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Extra drops being one.

What is this also.

1 hour ago, xero989 said:

I've had decent success with this complement against large fighter groups and still has some punch for light or no fighter lists.

1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Black Squadron ( 9 points)
3 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 24 points)

It's 74 points but I almost took out a 103 points of fighters lost a tie and black squdron.at that point Maarek Steele used grit to go harass ships with his buddy jendon.

Next time I recommend trying a variation of your list (you need Correllian Conflict for this but its worthwhile)...

Maarek Steele (21)

Colonel Jendon (20)

Valen Rudor (13)

X (could be Zertik Strom, could be Ciena Ree, could be Soontir Fel, or Mauler Mithel)

It depends on your local meta which one of these I'd recommend; if in doubt just start with Mauler Mithel for all purpose squad hate. Strom if you really want the escort (he pairs well with Soontir Fel and especially Bossk for a different variant). Ciena Ree is awesome on her own or with Valen Rudor in particular (split in two, Ree and Rudor, then Maarek and Jendon). Soontir punishes them for shooting Jendon or Maarek first, and then hits them with Counter otherwise.

Another fun option is Valen Rudor with a bunch of shuttles (add Dengar for extra spice). Since Valen isn't heavy, only Grit squads can escape; they otherwise have to grind through the Lambdas (with Dengar's extra counter that can suck).

Last fun option off the top of my head is Rudor with Decimators; similar concept but much more meaty and punchy than shuttles, though it lacks strategic and relay. If you want to create a nasty speed bump that can keep a bunch of squads engaged for a while, these are good choices. They don't have all the answers though, as Jan Ors or HWKs in general can let them slip past you. Grit squads can ruin the combo too, but with the addition of Morna Kee you can offset that.

I've become pretty focused on aces; squads without defense tokens just go poof way too easily (especially Imperial squadrons). Aces can run into bad luck against blue dice fighters, especially with rerolling, but they still last far longer and can have a much bigger impact via abilities.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

What is this also.

Drop is jargon for 'deployments'. Ie two squads buy you 1 deployment.

40 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

What about high counter value squadrons that can only counter? The only thing they can do is shoot back at other squadrons and engage.

What we really need is a way for ships to break from the squadron game if they want.

Not sure what form that would take, but Kallus seemed along the right lines - if the big problem is an enemy over-investing in named aces, requiring you to bring your own aces to counter them...Kallus solves that. Sort of. I mean, he needs to do MORE, and not be unique (would have been a handy turbolaser upgrade), but he's along the lines of the solution. Give ships the tools so that they don't need to worry about squadrons as much if the player chooses to go squadron-light.

Or, heck, maybe force that choice. Say, an offensive retrofit - 'Frequency Jamming' or something like that - which spends a 'squadron' command token or dial on the ship to toggle an enemy's activation slider to the 'activated' side for however many squadron points you have within activation range of your ship.

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Drop is jargon for 'deployments'. Ie two squads buy you 1 deployment.

Okay so, you were talking about light screen vs no squads. Which is changing the subject on what I was talking about. But I'm talking about a light screen having no advantage or _increased efficiency_ to holding off a max squads outmatch.

Continuing in your own line of thought: vs 8-10 squads, the max player will ALSO have another set OR TWO of deployments over a light screen list. Plus that the archetype easily allows 2+4, which is not easy for ship based lists to match, barring mc30s, which are one of the best ships in the game.

Second, you have to be taking very cheap squadrons to actually save on a deployment compared to a flotilla: 14 vs 18, and 16 vs 23. And if you're a light screen, that makes your screen smaller and much easier to kill, which is why 6 ties is not considered a strong enough screen. People on YOUR side of the argument made that comment that 90 points is actually the point at where 6 squads is enough. Not I. Only in the case of adding 2 ties vs a Gozanti does your point actually make sense: you save a whole SEVEN points. Whooooo what a wonderful advantage.

We can agree to disagree. But I won't agree to allow illogical points to stand. If you have issue with my logic, then let it be known.

I've been very happy with 3x YV-666's and Valen Rudor getting a speed bump from Squall.

Additionally, I'll upgrade the Quasar to a II and use it pretty aggressively to ping targets with red dice. I've added Flight Controllers or Ruthless Strategists before but it doesn't feel that much more effective than the original three YV's.

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

What we really need is a way for ships to break from the squadron game if they want.

Not sure what form that would take, but Kallus seemed along the right lines - if the big problem is an enemy over-investing in named aces, requiring you to bring your own aces to counter them...Kallus solves that. Sort of. I mean, he needs to do MORE, and not be unique (would have been a handy turbolaser upgrade), but he's along the lines of the solution. Give ships the tools so that they don't need to worry about squadrons as much if the player chooses to go squadron-light.

Isn't the answer here just killing their carriers or bringing enough of a screen that they don't kill you before you kill their carriers? No one's forced to bring squadrons, and there's players on here who run fine squadronless.

6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Or, heck, maybe force that choice. Say, an offensive retrofit - 'Frequency Jamming' or something like that - which spends a 'squadron' command token or dial on the ship to toggle an enemy's activation slider to the 'activated' side for however many squadron points you have within activation range of your ship.

What if we made it an ordnance slot? And then we could put it on the raider so they could spend a crit and do this? I'd put it's cost about.... 3 points seems fair to me.