4 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

I feel the rhymer nerf was reasonable and I liked it then, still like it now. However, if we were to un-nerf Rhymer to help balance out Gallent Haven like Green Knight is saying, which I agree with, we could just go back to Old School Rhymer and make him apply to squads with Bomber only. You may see the rise of large balls of Tie Defenders under Sloane, or a return of the Fireball under some other admiral, but with the increase in squadron tech I don't think these types of lists would be utterly dominate, and as GK has alluded to, threaten the GH/ Yavaris and 3 Rebel bomber superiority.

Isn't that always the issue though with balance, nerf one thing and another thing takes over as "primary" in the world of domination.

To me the Armada meta, looking at worlds 2017 for example is absolute crap. The only thing we saw was Haven/Yavaris and variations on Flotilla activation spam. To say it was disappointing and depressing barely scratches the surface, it was a true **** show by every definition of the word.

I can't say with any level of legitimacy what does and doesn't need to be nerfed being very much an amateur, but right now the only reason I have any interest in playing the game is because this sort of crap doesn't appear at our house table, so it remains the wonderful game of capital ship combat it should be for me. Based on the lists being run in competitive play however I don't blame people for call on nerfs because its kind of ridiculous that the only way you can compete is if you run a variation on 1 of 2 lists. Worlds results should be a giant red flag to FFG, I hope for the competitive guys that they fix this stuff quickly.

I'd hardly call that the only way to compete, the various regionals have had quite a variety of different lists.

Though the 2-3 Rebel build type has had the strongest showing in terms of top finishings. Sloane did not pan out to be the Rebel Bomber kiler we all hoped she would be. She is good but GH/Yavaris are just better.

It seems like the issue isn't the Rhymer nerf itself, but the absence of a Rhymer replacement.

The Empire doesn't have a Norra, or a Yavaris, or a B-wing. Rhymer hugely constricted the Imperial squadron design space, but they haven't yet put out a wave that fills the half of it Sloane doesn't touch, so that tech is all just left behind for now. TIE Bombers, Firesprays, etc don't gel with Sloane, so they've lost their force-multiplier without gaining a replacement.

4 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

Isn't that always the issue though with balance, nerf one thing and another thing takes over as "primary" in the world of domination.

To me the Armada meta, looking at worlds 2017 for example is absolute crap. The only thing we saw was Haven/Yavaris and variations on Flotilla activation spam. To say it was disappointing and depressing barely scratches the surface, it was a true **** show by every definition of the word.

Bump this. Apparently it wasn't enough for lots of people, A mirror Rieekan Yavaris (only a few had GH) 2+3 134 match at top2, 5/8 of the top8. Something like 5-6 Regionals and Nationals.

2 hours ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

Though the 2-3 Rebel build type has had the strongest showing in terms of top finishings. Sloane did not pan out to be the Rebel Bomber kiler we all hoped she would be. She is good but GH/Yavaris are just better.

This has been really interesting. I love some of the incredibly complex and detailed insight from very experienced players. Way deeper than I had ever thought on the issue. It's fun to see this sort of thing pop up!

While I like the “pre-Nerd Rhymer but only for bombers” idea, perhaps an alternative way to go would be to design a “partner” for him the way Jendon is often paired with a certain someone. The most obvious sort of thing would be another ace that you’d really like to get that extra distance out of for some reason. Of course, it could also be some kind of ship upgrade, too. And once you’re bringing Rhymer for this one “partner” you might be tempted to bring more bombers along, too. Or, perhaps something that helps TIE bombers in general, which would lead to some using Rhymer more, too?

(I wonder if increasing the raid threat range of those Mandalorian squadrons will make him worthwhile to some.)

With some of the new additions in Wave 7 to increase big ship play, we will see if GH + Yavaris is just as deadly.

My concern is how brutal Raddus will be.

37 minutes ago, ripper998 said:

With some of the new additions in Wave 7 to increase big ship play, we will see if GH + Yavaris is just as deadly.

Unfortunately we don't have any GH+Yavaris players around here for me to test on... but I feel like EWS in the right fleet and the right hands knee-caps it. I'm surprised that card hasn't gotten a lot more attention...

I'm undecided as to whether rhymer was hit with the NERFsaber a little too hard or not... I know initial reactions were why? And I think ffg answered this that they wanted to open up build opportunities and I get that... Whether or not we really have more build diversity now is a valid question...

Sloane, flight controllers, six ace alpha is fairly brutal... You could try bombing that quasar into the dust, but without rhymer it gets a lot harder...same for killing yvaris, rhymer and 5 bombers could do it quite consistently, now with NERF not so much.

For better or worse, rhymer wasa check on these builds it seems and now that he is gone, those builds are having a field day. Not to mention rhymer allowed for some other builds to exist as well, such as the fireball.

Firesprays attacking across the map turn1 followed up with a turn two squad activation, we usually enough to remove a small base from play... Now Sloane and haven running roughshod over everything, that build is risky. Not too mention Pryce.

With wave seven realising, Sloane now gains a pseudo rogue ability for one turn, but with all the power of an alpha strike, making things even tougher. Wanna go last with yvaris, sorry, no matter how many flotilla you bring.

I think there are still answers to all of this, and armada isn't solved, but rhymer might have been a good one to have.

1 hour ago, SkyCake said:

I'm undecided as to whether rhymer was hit with the NERFsaber a little too hard or not... I know initial reactions were why? And I think ffg answered this that they wanted to open up build opportunities and I get that... Whether or not we really have more build diversity now is a valid question...

Sloane, flight controllers, six ace alpha is fairly brutal... You could try bombing that quasar into the dust, but without rhymer it gets a lot harder...same for killing yvaris, rhymer and 5 bombers could do it quite consistently, now with NERF not so much.

For better or worse, rhymer wasa check on these builds it seems and now that he is gone, those builds are having a field day. Not to mention rhymer allowed for some other builds to exist as well, such as the fireball.

Firesprays attacking across the map turn1 followed up with a turn two squad activation, we usually enough to remove a small base from play... Now Sloane and haven running roughshod over everything, that build is risky. Not too mention Pryce.

With wave seven realising, Sloane now gains a pseudo rogue ability for one turn, but with all the power of an alpha strike, making things even tougher. Wanna go last with yvaris, sorry, no matter how many flotilla you bring.

I think there are still answers to all of this, and armada isn't solved, but rhymer might have been a good one to have.

Yeah I kind of agree with this, even though on his own merits Rhymer was definitely OP creating a pretty irresistible super combo. Its one of the few competitive meta type things that even made my gaming group, a group that feels strongly that whatever the meta is, we hate it.

More than anything though I think the biggest issue introduced to the game despite any nerfs has been flotilla activation spam. I don't know how else to describe it other than in classic Magic The Gathering terms, it is pure, uninhibited and undeniable cheese. Running Flotilla spam is in my book effectively finding an exploit in the game and ruining it for the sake of winning. I'm glad stuff like this is rejected in my gaming circles, but I wouldn't go near competitive play with a 10 foot pole right now and its not because I have some fear of losing (quite accustomed to it) but I simply don't think I could be polite and hold my tongue when someone shows up to the table with a smile running that garbage. I think I would respect a player more if he cheated me, than if he won with a Flotilla activation spam list, because at least getting away with cheating requires some thought and planning.

I'm saddened by the introduction of Strategic Adviser as well, which I think attempts to address activation spam stall tactics by I guess creating a counter way to stall. I get that they are trying to solve a huge mistake they made with Flotillas but its going to do a grand total of zero to make the game more interesting or fun, if anything it will just drag out matches where people try to out-stall each other doing "nothing" moves. Its pretty ridiculous when you think about it, especially when solving flotilla spam could have been solved in any number of ways via a simple updated rule. Perhaps something as simple as "each additional flotilla costs +10 points after the first". First one is say 18 points, second 28, third 38. Something like that.

Its a bummer, I don't think it will have any impact on house games at least in my circles so I can't say that I care that much or feel less excited about the game, but competitive play as far as I'm concerned is deader than a door nail. Its boring to play and even more boring to watch.

6 hours ago, IronNerd said:

Unfortunately we don't have any GH+Yavaris players around here for me to test on... but I feel like EWS in the right fleet and the right hands knee-caps it. I'm surprised that card hasn't gotten a lot more attention...

Its getting a ton of attention in my armada circles.

Oh, EWS looks pretty good. We're looking at it. But its not in the builder yet, and I'm not bored enough to drum up a game. 1 week until Wave7 drops....

Delicious.

I think Rhymer is fine now. Almost quadrupling the range of your Bombers (plus also getting double brace und +1 Anti-Squad die) for the cost of not even one additional TIE Bomber was just insanely good. Im with@Ardaedhel on this one. It wasnt an option before the nerf. It was just downright stupid to not use him, even if you only had one other Bomber in your Fleet. I played him once after the nerf and now it feels like a nice option. He still almost doubles your range. Granted hes not a must-have anymore but thats a good thing. Its not like hes useless now.

@Snipafists suggestion doesnt sound bad either, but i think it would still be a little too good especially with Dezimators and Firesprays. I generally like Rhymers effect but its the same issue as with Demolisher: It bypasses the most basic game mechanics which makes it IMO a little too easy and cheap to use.

1 hour ago, >kkj said:

I think Rhymer is fine now. Almost quadrupling the range of your Bombers (plus also getting double brace und +1 Anti-Squad die) for the cost of not even one additional TIE Bomber was just insanely good. Im with@Ardaedhel on this one. It wasnt an option before the nerf. It was just downright stupid to not use him, even if you only had one other Bomber in your Fleet. I played him once after the nerf and now it feels like a nice option. He still almost doubles your range. Granted hes not a must-have anymore but thats a good thing. Its not like hes useless now.

@Snipafists suggestion doesnt sound bad either, but i think it would still be a little too good especially with Dezimators and Firesprays. I generally like Rhymers effect but its the same issue as with Demolisher: It bypasses the most basic game mechanics which makes it IMO a little too easy and cheap to use.

When trying to link someone, youve got it downpacked, except you have to select them from the dropdown menu that should appear

@>kkj

6 hours ago, >kkj said:

@Snipafists suggestion doesnt sound bad either, but i think it would still be a little too good especially with Dezimators and Firesprays. I generally like Rhymers effect but its the same issue as with Demolisher: It bypasses the most basic game mechanics which makes it IMO a little too easy and cheap to use.

One thing to keep in mind is the obstructed Firesprays would get 1 blue bomber die (for 18 points, average of 0.75 damage) and the Decimators would get 2 blue non-bomber dice (for 22 points, average of 1 damage). They would not be terribly effective at medium range in most circumstances and would need to move to close range or distance 1 to get any kind of damage in that justified their cost. It would just give them something to do on the way there.

On 24/01/2018 at 4:53 PM, svelok said:

It seems like the issue isn't the Rhymer nerf itself, but the absence of a Rhymer replacement.

The Empire doesn't have a Norra, or a Yavaris, or a B-wing. Rhymer hugely constricted the Imperial squadron design space, but they haven't yet put out a wave that fills the half of it Sloane doesn't touch, so that tech is all just left behind for now. TIE Bombers, Firesprays, etc don't gel with Sloane, so they've lost their force-multiplier without gaining a replacement.

I think this is the best reason.

For me, the Rhymer nerf was needed. An alpha strike from Rhymer was pretty much unavoidable and you could lose a ship before you've really had any opportunity to do anything. My buddy used Rhymer a lot, and this happened a lot. Gallant Haven doesn't even come close by comparison. Yes, it's good, but it requires you to keep your squads tightly meshed with the ship and in that sense is defensive in nature. Rhymer was offensive and at speed 5 pretty much guaranteed you an stoppable alpha strike.

But like svelok says, I totally agree that the nerf has left a bit of a void for Imperial bombers and this probably needs some new attention some time in the future to bring it to the fore again. Sloane has only exacerbated this void by allowing a huge array of standard anti squadron fighters to now fulfill a ship attacking role.

No his nerf is fine just with Slone add in all fighters follow me and either vector or corruptor and suddenly you have speed FIVE firesprays, throw in squall (because screw your opponent) and suddenly Rhymer's threat range is almost infinite.

I miss Rhymer. This was my staple Wave 4 list I used. I'd make a Wave 7 version but Rhymer nerf killed it.

Faction: Imperial
Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault: Precision Strike
Defense: Contested Outpost
Navigation: Superior Positions

Victory II (85)
• Admiral Motti (24)
• Skilled First Officer (1)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• Leading Shots (4)
= 130 Points

Victory II (85)
• Skilled First Officer (1)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Spinal Armament (9)
• Leading Shots (4)
= 106 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Bomber Command Center (8)
= 31 Points

Squadrons:
• Major Rhymer (16)
• 5 x TIE Bomber Squadron (45)
• 2 x Firespray-31 (36)
• 2 x TIE Advanced Squadron (24)
• JumpMaster 5000 (12)
= 133 Points

Total Points: 400

He should have been Tie bombers only

Crazy enough, I think we actually have an agreement here (wow, that's rare).

Rhymer should be back to medium range, but only for squadrons with Bomber.
(Or literally only Tie Bombers).

After wave7 hits and settles a bit, should we make a petition to FFG, if they don't think it'll break the next set of squadrons released (and/or the Gauntlets) if they want to revise their Rhymer nerf?

What irks me the most about this Nerf was how empire lost rhymer but rebels didn't have to give up their yavaris combo, just rieekan and stacked bccs. Sloane, stele, and jendon just doesn't feel as crushing as a bwing 6-tap with Norra.

I feel as if I have been summoned from the abyss.

The core issue why rhymer at medium is the damage he could put out on lists without them being able to respond in any way. Coupled with various quasar based movements, if rhymer was reverted in any way to medium, then quite a few lists would be gone overnight. Granted rhymer is what kept pickle token lists from happening, but adding him back into the mix will just shift the meta. There will always be something stronger, and if the nail sticking out keeps getting hammered the fun of the game will slowly vanish as each ship and squadron is homogenized.

Close range is good and he's no longer an autoinclude. w7 just came out and things will need to shake out to see what is the new hotness. Close range raid tokens pair well with rhymer and might be a key in stopping problem lists in their tracks.

Also: it's not the triple tap b-wings that are the issue, it's the norra +1 damage crit effect thats the problem.

3 minutes ago, mythics said:

...issue why rhymer at medium is the damage he could put out on lists without them being able to respond in any way. Coupled with various ...

*cough*

1 hour ago, mythics said:

it's not the triple tap b-wings that are the issue, it's the norra +1 damage crit effect thats the problem.

Point being, that FAQ touched a lot of meta-defining cards (Rieekan, Rhymer, Demolisher), but Yavaris was left un-touched. For 6 points you get around the restriction built into Yavaris to deal potentially more damage than a large ship volley (esp with BCC and Norra). True, it's slow moving, but we're discussing in another thread the power of second player lists that camp on their side of the board. Yavaris, as you've shown me, is one of the king archetypes for playing defensively.