Just now, Ardaedhel said:Not only that, but for whatever reason they chose to either implicitly or explicitly range limit pretty much all ship flak upgrades to less than Rhymer range. Which is dumb and bad.
Not after the nerf (I like the fact that Rhymer still counters QLT), but before that.. yeah, it was abysmal.
I think it's fine, you have to adjust to taking only a couple of bombers with him instead of a whole wad of them. I do think he's 1-2 points overcosted at this point, though.
2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:Wait a minute, what happened to this?:
I kid, I kid.
To be completely fair Ard, I only browsed the Indy lists and then wildly generalized anecdotally about Rhymer's appearance at other regionals XD
So I was in obeyance of my own rules. No data was analyzed in making my assertions, just anecdotal browsing of regional lists.
1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:Where does the blue milk reference come from? Isn't that post from pre-Last Jedi?
2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:What you're really after with the Maarek/Jendon combo is trying to double down on Maarek. How often do you ever see Jendon without Maarek? I think I've seen it once. Instead, you get people willing to spend as much again for a second attack out of the same platform, with the known weakness that if Maarek himself dies, the 41-point combo is effectively neutralized. You're paying a second 20 points for a less good clone Maarek. Mu'uaarek, if you will.
I have run Jendon without Maarak a few times:
IG88 - Great for killing Intel folks and Shara (If I'm not doing a jendon on IG88 i usually let him rogue, but oftentimes I'll drop him in in the squad phase for Flight controllers boost and Jendon follow up)
181st (AKA "Saber" squadron for the plebs)
Vader (When I feel like running Vader - he's fun double tapping stuff)
But yeah, it's probs best with Maarak.
Edited by EggzavierI use him with Maarek, and those two can weather all kinds of squadron damage.
Rhymer was very poorly designed from the outset. He broke a core game rule (the distance at which squadrons can attack ships) and broke it to a sever degree (about 2.5-3x normal distance). My opinion on Rhymer (a quote pre-nerf) "Either Rhymer gets nerfed or he'll eventually break the game". Apparently FFG agreed.
Anything that breaks core rules either heavily restricts design or ends up breaking the game. This can even happen to relatively innocuous things fore example, "Genius" from X-Wing was basically unplayable for it's entire lifespan until the Scurrg dropped and then it both got nerfed and forced a nerf on another card. It's fun while it lasts, but breaking core rules in a big way has a shelf life and more credit to a design team that tosses it out before it hits the expiration date.
14 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:Rhymer was very poorly designed from the outset. He broke a core game rule (the distance at which squadrons can attack ships) and broke it to a sever degree (about 2.5-3x normal distance). My opinion on Rhymer (a quote pre-nerf) "Either Rhymer gets nerfed or he'll eventually break the game". Apparently FFG agreed.
Anything that breaks core rules either heavily restricts design or ends up breaking the game. This can even happen to relatively innocuous things fore example, "Genius" from X-Wing was basically unplayable for it's entire lifespan until the Scurrg dropped and then it both got nerfed and forced a nerf on another card. It's fun while it lasts, but breaking core rules in a big way has a shelf life and more credit to a design team that tosses it out before it hits the expiration date.
COUGH YAVARIS. COUGH DEMOLISHER.
BIG COUGH AGAIN FOR YAVARIS. MUST BE CANCER, I DONT COUGH THIS MUCH NORMALLY.
18 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:COUGH YAVARIS.
Yavaris is pretty common, I'll grant you that. But she's also got great big signs painted on her port and starboard sides that say "shoot me."
34 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:Rhymer was very poorly designed from the outset. He broke a core game rule (the distance at which squadrons can attack ships) and broke it to a sever degree (about 2.5-3x normal distance). My opinion on Rhymer (a quote pre-nerf) "Either Rhymer gets nerfed or he'll eventually break the game". Apparently FFG agreed.
Anything that breaks core rules either heavily restricts design or ends up breaking the game. This can even happen to relatively innocuous things fore example, "Genius" from X-Wing was basically unplayable for it's entire lifespan until the Scurrg dropped and then it both got nerfed and forced a nerf on another card. It's fun while it lasts, but breaking core rules in a big way has a shelf life and more credit to a design team that tosses it out before it hits the expiration date.
Breaking core game mechanics/rules? Isn't the essentially every unique card ability? Not saying you're wrong... just that breaking core mechanics to provide "uniqueness" is how ffg operates.
Was Rhymer nerfed too hard? I think so, but I almost never used him before and never after as I look to have my abilities set up different than most I guess. My squadrons are there to protect me from his squadrons. If they are still alive after that to go hunting damaged ships. I also think that he was the counter to Gallant Haven, which if you ask me needs a nerf (I hate that ship). It may have just be my local meta but he was almost never included in any of our Empire fleets. It might also have been that we had a different idea on what he was supposed to do. I thought the idea behind him was that he could attack outside of the range of a percentage of the AA (black dice) and would thereby draw the fighter screen out to engage him. But now he can not avoid any AA so from where we were looking at him he has no special ability anymore.
If yes, what would you have done differently? Really nothing as we did not see him as one of the over powerful units, but if something needed done my thought is make it so that only bombers can use his ability. This would limit it to all TiE Bombers (who only have one black die), Tempest Squadron (who only has one black die), TiE Defenders (who have one blue die, Maarek has two blue dice), and Firesprays (that have two blue dice, Boba has one blue/black). So even when Admiral Solane (some one else that we never use) came out not that big of a deal as those with the black dice will never use her ability (no accuracy, and as a bomber why are you going to re-roll a critical). Now for the Defenders and Firesprays that do have blue dice I do not see it likely that they would re-roll critical. As for the accuracy we are looking at sixteen points for the cheapest of the squadrons and that with only one blue die, so I can affect one token but do no damage, eighteen/twenty one points to get two blue dice (generic/ace) and the most expensive (26pts) has a blue and a black, so it might just be me but I do not even see an issue when you add Admiral Solane to the mix.
If no, please state your reasons.
59 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:COUGH YAVARIS. COUGH DEMOLISHER.
BIG COUGH AGAIN FOR YAVARIS. MUST BE CANCER, I DONT COUGH THIS MUCH NORMALLY.
keep your nerf bat away from my demo. feel free to beat Yavaris to death with it.
35 minutes ago, Whiplash205 said:keep your nerf bat away from my demo. feel free to beat Yavaris to death with it.
Demo already got swiped by the bat. It lives, but it'll never chase down little children in a lawnmower no longer.
No way. Game is much better now.
Like demo, he was simply there to give wave 1 imps a chance to compete with w1 rebels which otherwise had no reason to be caught at close range. The game has moved beyond that.
I preface this buy saying I suck at Armada even though I love it and all my advice and opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.
With that out of the way, as a Rebel player who never ran but often faced Rhymer Balls, to me there was definitely something off about having a single squad in the game that conclusively defined how as an opponent I had to think about all list building.
Effectively until this nerf when I built a list it started with "ok how does this list deal with Rhymer". If it couldn't it was a bad list, period, no exceptions.
Today, Rhymer falls into the consideration of "how do I deal with a bomber focused list" which I think as a more general consideration means the issue has been solved. Rhymer can't be ignored or anything but he is no more dangerous or has anymore influence on my list building than any other bomber type list be it empire or rebel, so to me this nerf was both necessary and very fair.
In essence its a 16 point named bomber no more or less valuable than say a Captain Jonus which costs the same points. Its an appropriate advantage that has uses in certain combinations and lists, but it is not the defining "auto add" to every list.
To me it was the same with the Demolisher, still threatening and powerful but until the nerf it was basically in every list I ever faced, an auto-add because it was OP.
8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:COUGH YAVARIS. COUGH DEMOLISHER.
BIG COUGH AGAIN FOR YAVARIS. MUST BE CANCER, I DONT COUGH THIS MUCH NORMALLY.
8 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:COUGH YAVARIS. COUGH DEMOLISHER.
BIG COUGH AGAIN FOR YAVARIS. MUST BE CANCER, I DONT COUGH THIS MUCH NORMALLY.
I don't understand the point here. I made a thread with proposed fixes pre nerf and both of these were on it. Per my point, they've also been meta drivers and heavily influenced design. It's also not a coincidence that both of these are wave 1 cards.
When Yavaris gets nerfed I won't say "oh no" or "did it get nerfed too hard?".
Problem with nerfing Yavaris is that its one of the few redeeming elements of the Neb-B and nerfing it would be the final nail in the Neb-B coffin. I agree that Yavaris is a bit too strong, but if its nerfed I hope they address the general drawback filled Neb-B.
Personally I think the nerf to Demolisher did little to dissuade its use and that is because the Gladiator is still a fantastic ship for the Empire and the Demolisher title post nerf is still excellent. Of all the ships I fear on the board as a Rebel player facing empire lists, that's the one pre and post nerf.
I have always felt that the easy way to fix the Nebulon B is to either reduce its cost by a few points or make it more maneuverable. In essence it's a squishy glass half cannon with more vulnerabilities than any other 3 ships combined that rarely survives a fight, the least they could do for it is make it cheaper or give it half a chance to act as a flanker .
9 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:Rhymer was very poorly designed from the outset. He broke a core game rule (the distance at which squadrons can attack ships) and broke it to a sever degree (about 2.5-3x normal distance). My opinion on Rhymer (a quote pre-nerf) "Either Rhymer gets nerfed or he'll eventually break the game". Apparently FFG agreed.
Anything that breaks core rules either heavily restricts design or ends up breaking the game. This can even happen to relatively innocuous things fore example, "Genius" from X-Wing was basically unplayable for it's entire lifespan until the Scurrg dropped and then it both got nerfed and forced a nerf on another card. It's fun while it lasts, but breaking core rules in a big way has a shelf life and more credit to a design team that tosses it out before it hits the expiration date.
Huh. I keep hearing this argument and I just can't ignore it anymore. What is a "core rule"? Aren't all rules in the RRG core, by definition?
Why is "Each squadron’s attack range is distance 1" (broken by Rhymer) somehow more "core" than, say, "A squadron can either move or attack when activated during [the squadron] phase; it cannot do both" (broken by Rogue), "If a moving ship or squadron overlaps an obstacle token, it resolves an effect depending on the specific type of obstacle token that it overlapped" (broken by Chart Officer) or, for that matter, any other passage in the RRG that is overruled by an upgrade card or unique squadron ability?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that some aspects of the mechanics are tricky to tamper with without compromising future design space. And I agree that Rhymer was... problematic. But in the absence of evidence or at least clear definitions, these blanket statements of "breaking core rules is bad, mmmkay?" are unhelpful at best and incredibly condescending at worst, as if the speaker was the keeper of some holy secret too arcane to be entrusted to mere mortals.
TLDR; this:
8 hours ago, PartyPotato said:Breaking core game mechanics/rules? Isn't the essentially every unique card ability?
Not saying you're wrong...[he is!] just that breaking core mechanics to provide "uniqueness" is how ffg operates.
The nerf was needed. Period. It might have been too much. I think I like the suggestion of changing Rhymer back to medium range but only for TIE Bombers.
He was irritating and ubiquitous, but not broken before. I do think with Decimators and Sloane he crossed the line. Only affecting TIE Bombers (so not even firesprays) typecasts him into a narrow but effective role. Not one that buffs Sloane or is an easy “just so it” tactic.
Should Rhymer have been 'Nerfed':... Is that a new term for become a nurf hered? If so thats a large fall from grace, one minute hes an ace bomber pilot the next a scruff looking Nurf herder 
Nerfed a bit too hard.
I'd say that it would be okay if Rhymer worked at medium range but only for black battery dice (TIE Bombers, TIE Advanced, etc.). Thus, no Sloane boost.
If you need fluff, say that Rhymer is able to enhance missile lock-on (hence only black ordnance dice).
Edited by DemocratusRhymer is OK now.
Before he was just lame, cuz he took away so much in terms of counterplay.
IMO the problem now is not that Rhymer is weak, it's that we have gotten otehr, abusive stuff.
That thing called Relay.
And Sloane.
Why do Rhymer, when you can relay-Sloane? It makes no sense, so you drop Rhymer.
Also, GH has gained a lot of popularity after Rhymer got nerfed, and that's no miracle, bc Rhymer was kind of the Imp reply to GH. They arrived at the same time, and you can very much tell they were intended as counters.
41 minutes ago, slasher956 said:Should Rhymer have been 'Nerfed':... Is that a new term for become a nurf hered? If so thats a large fall from grace, one minute hes an ace bomber pilot the next a scruff looking Nurf herder
I like the style of your reconning, sir 
But in case you are asking the question genuinely: Its a reference to Nerf, the brand of toy guns that shoot soft foam ammunition.
I feel the rhymer nerf was reasonable and I liked it then, still like it now. However, if we were to un-nerf Rhymer to help balance out Gallent Haven like Green Knight is saying, which I agree with, we could just go back to Old School Rhymer and make him apply to squads with Bomber only. You may see the rise of large balls of Tie Defenders under Sloane, or a return of the Fireball under some other admiral, but with the increase in squadron tech I don't think these types of lists would be utterly dominate, and as GK has alluded to, threaten the GH/ Yavaris and 3 Rebel bomber superiority.
26 minutes ago, jbrandmeyer said:I like the style of your reconning, sir
But in case you are asking the question genuinely: Its a reference to Nerf, the brand of toy guns that shoot soft foam ammunition.
nah it was a tongue in check comment.... board in work..... blood SQL!!!