19 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

• Imperial squad-heavy fleets can no longer prod Rebel squadrons out of the Gallant Haven bunker by lobbing bricks at the Gallant Haven from medium range. This has led to the ubiquity of Gallant Haven in Rebel squad-heavy fleets because Imperial squad-heavy fleets now rely heavily on getting an alpha strike to clear away obstacles to going after ships, and Gallant Haven punishes them for that.
• Because Imperials lack the force multiplier effects of something like Yavaris or Adar Talon (barring Jendon, we're getting there), they had previously relied on their bombers at least being capable of hitting ships from further out (with Rhymer and speed 4) and being less squad-command-intensive to use (again, due to Rhymer). They didn't have the sheer damage efficiency of an ideal-circumstances Yavaris double-tap mob of B-Wings, but the B-Wings needed to set several things up correctly to get that reward whereas Rhymer and TIE Bomber friends (or whoever) had the benefit of easier/less complex setup.
  • With that removed, Imperial squadrons that intend to go after ships have been focused a lot more on Jendon (as he can double-tap Maarek or Morna for some smaller-scale Rebel-style squadron efficiency), which due to Relay, tends to lead to a lot of samey kind of boring fleets relying on flotillas channeling commands through Relay while running away from a fight, as opposed to Bomber Command Center Gozantis providing support closer to the fight.

This is EXACTLY what I ran into as an Imp squad player, just written better then I could have put it down. The first bullet point about GH is a direct use of Rhymer's ability that Imperials desperately needed that they now lack, letting Gallant Haven run around and crap all over everything.

The second is less Rhymer, and more the effect of asymetrical balance between Yavaris and Jendon.

When people complain about the Imperial relay meta, Yavaris is the root cause. Do you ever see a Rebel bomber fleet without Yavaris? No, unless they are self handicapping, because in a game like this the moment you put in any sort of multiplicitive effect it becomes an auto include. The closest thing Imperials have to that is Jendon. If you are bringing Maarek (which Sloane and every Imp bomber fleet has no reason not too), then you also have no reason not to bring Jendon to double tap something to stand a chance against a heavy squad Yavaris set up. Problem is, 1, Jendon isn't as good as Yavaris now that the title has multiple sets of training wheels, and 2, we are paying points for relay on Jendon's chasis even if we don't want it. We don't CHOOSE to include relay. We are compelled, by the current state of the game, to include Jendon who just so happens to also have relay. So we can choose to waste those points, or we can choose to utilize them. If Jendon lost relay and kept strategic, or lost both and got some other buff a la Hera, Imperial lists would look dramatically different. So if you want your Gozanti's away utilizing relay, which you are already invested in, then you don't want BCC which puts them in harms way. If you don't want BCC, you don't want generic bombers. If you don't want generic bombers, you don't want Rhymer.

All they needed to do was make it so Sloane tie's couldn't benefit. Maybe simple as "Friendly squadrons at distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all black dice in their battery armament." At least this would give people a reason to take black dice bombers, and maybe even NOT take Maarek and Jendon/relay for once, as the ability of Rhymer would offer an equal alternate benefit.

48 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think he was. There seems to be little reason to take him now.

A better nerf I think is to undue and simply say Rhymer only affects Bomber squadrons. If you want to avoid direct Sloane interaction.

This was what I was gonna say as well.

This topic breaks my heart.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/252946-bye-bye-to-my-medium-range-die/

Please... stop...

(He should be cheaper now!)

Where does the blue milk reference come from? Isn't that post from pre-Last Jedi?

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

Where does the blue milk reference come from? Isn't that post from pre-Last Jedi?

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Where does the blue milk reference come from? Isn't that post from pre-Last Jedi?

15 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

you also have no reason not to bring Jendon to double tap something to stand a chance against a heavy squad Yavaris set up.

Or you could spend those 20 points on different squadrons.

I think the root cause goes further down than you're tracing.

What you're really after with the Maarek/Jendon combo is trying to double down on Maarek. How often do you ever see Jendon without Maarek? I think I've seen it once. Instead, you get people willing to spend as much again for a second attack out of the same platform, with the known weakness that if Maarek himself dies, the 41-point combo is effectively neutralized. You're paying a second 20 points for a less good clone Maarek. Mu'uaarek, if you will.

That people not only are willing to do that, but consider it an auto-include, suggests that the root of the issue you're getting at is not that Jendon is too good, it's that Maarek is too good. Jendon wouldn't be showing up all the time if it weren't for Maarek.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Where does the blue milk reference come from? Isn't that post from pre-Last Jedi?

wait....you dont know about the blue milk?

Was Rhymer nerfed too hard?

I waver on the line here - but as of now, I'm leaning towards yes. In isolation? Probably not - although the anti-Gallant Haven tech is a very good point. In the context of the rest of the squadron counter-play toys that have been released now? That's why I'm leaning yes.

What would I have done differently? Actually - I might have made it activation dependent. Something like "When you activate Major Rhymer, he and any squadrons that are activated as part of the same squadron command may attack with their battery armament at medium range."

The intent, at least, is that you can only use him on himself plus 1-5 other squadrons per round, and only if you activate him. It would have been a soft nerf to the Relay meta at the same time, since Rhymer no longer works with lots of small squadron activations

5 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

What you're really after with the Maarek/Jendon combo is trying to double down on Maarek. How often do you ever see Jendon without Maarek? I think I've seen it once. Instead, you get people willing to spend as much again for a second attack out of the same platform, with the known weakness that if Maarek himself dies, the 41-point combo is effectively neutralized. You're paying a second 20 points for a less good clone Maarek. Mu'uaarek, if you will.

That people not only are willing to do that, but consider it an auto-include, suggests that the root of the issue you're getting at is not that Jendon is too good, it's that Maarek is too good. Jendon wouldn't be showing up all the time if it weren't for Maarek.

I don't think the issue is Maarek, per se, given even he doesn't show up all the time. Rather, just that he's basically well-balanced for his points, and so Jendon + Maarek giving you (effectively) two Maareks at 20.5 pts each makes him an incredibly solid value. Still not enough to show up in every list, the way that Rhymer used to, but often enough. And obviously you do always pair them together, because if you have a list that can make effective use of one Maarek Stele at 21 pts, you can probably make even better use of two Maarek Steles for 20.5 pts each.

4 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I don't think the issue is Maarek, per se, given even he doesn't show up all the time. Rather, just that he's basically well-balanced for his points, and so Jendon + Maarek giving you (effectively) two Maareks at 20.5 pts each makes him an incredibly solid value. Still not enough to show up in every list, the way that Rhymer used to, but often enough. And obviously you do always pair them together, because if you have a list that can make effective use of one Maarek Stele at 21 pts, you can probably make even better use of two Maarek Steles for 20.5 pts each.

Makes you wish Vader was better eh?

Jendon is good with any squadron whose attack is worth Jendon’s points. Mareek is the most obvious choice, but Vader, Boba, Bossk, a Firespray, Morna and situationally Saber or IG-88 are all viable targets for Jendons ability.

4 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Or you could spend those 20 points on different squadrons.

I think the root cause goes further down than you're tracing.

What you're really after with the Maarek/Jendon combo is trying to double down on Maarek. How often do you ever see Jendon without Maarek? I think I've seen it once. Instead, you get people willing to spend as much again for a second attack out of the same platform, with the known weakness that if Maarek himself dies, the 41-point combo is effectively neutralized. You're paying a second 20 points for a less good clone Maarek. Mu'uaarek, if you will.

That people not only are willing to do that, but consider it an auto-include, suggests that the root of the issue you're getting at is not that Jendon is too good, it's that Maarek is too good. Jendon wouldn't be showing up all the time if it weren't for Maarek.

I respectfully disagree with you here. Because 1 squadron x 2 is better than 2 squadrons in my book. I am more efficient on activations and engagement space utilizing a multiplier than just bringing 2 squads. Yes Maarek is good, he is the most well rounded fighter the Empire has which is why he shows up all over the place. He also has no special abilities, and so all of his sizable point burden is solely committed to those stats. That is what makes him a good generic double tap. But there are other options to use for Jendon. For instance, early in the game against counter aces I will often double tap Valen or Saber to clear scatters without eating tons of counter. When I play, I find it is pretty rare I double tap Maarek, only when I can know I will put on 2 face up cards really. But I still consider Jendon an auto include because he can allow me to engage with 1 squad, and hit them twice. That is what I am after.

4 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I respectfully disagree with you here. Because 1 squadron x 2 is better than 2 squadrons in my book. I am more efficient on activations and engagement space utilizing a multiplier than just bringing 2 squads. Yes Maarek is good, he is the most well rounded fighter the Empire has which is why he shows up all over the place. He also has no special abilities, and so all of his sizable point burden is solely committed to those stats. That is what makes him a good generic double tap. But there are other options to use for Jendon. For instance, early in the game against counter aces I will often double tap Valen or Saber to clear scatters without eating tons of counter. When I play, I find it is pretty rare I double tap Maarek, only when I can know I will put on 2 face up cards really. But I still consider Jendon an auto include because he can allow me to engage with 1 squad, and hit them twice. That is what I am after.

I agree with everything here except the use of the word “respectfully”.

F you ard. Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad about it.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Makes you wish Vader was better eh?

Vader definitely has a lot of his own problems, but the real reason for the lack of many other pairings is that Jendon specifically buffs attacks, only, so the question is whether the pilot in question has any kind of synergy with making multiple attacks. Maarek does. Arguably IG-88 does, too, if you are squadron hunting - but then Jendon doesn't pass through a ship's Fire Control buff to help anti-squadron attacks, and as a 'Rogue' Sloane doesn't work with IG, anyway. Morna Kee and Bossk both do have 'attack' abilities, but are so overpriced as to be difficult to justify even with the doubling-discount that Jendon brings. (Although I am somewhat surprised I haven't seen more people try it, though.)

What was really nerfed that needs to change is the XI-7/Advanced Projector ruling I say!

1 minute ago, xanderf said:

Vader definitely has a lot of his own problems, but the real reason for the lack of many other pairings is that Jendon specifically buffs attacks, only, so the question is whether the pilot in question has any kind of synergy with making multiple attacks. Maarek does. Arguably IG-88 does, too, if you are squadron hunting - but then Jendon doesn't pass through a ship's Fire Control buff to help anti-squadron attacks, and as a 'Rogue' Sloane doesn't work with IG, anyway. Morna Kee and Bossk both do have 'attack' abilities, but are so overpriced as to be difficult to justify even with the doubling-discount that Jendon brings. (Although I am somewhat surprised I haven't seen more people try it, though.)

Bossk doesn't really do enough battery damage.

Morna Kee... dunno haven't tried.

15 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I respectfully disagree with you here. Because 1 squadron x 2 is better than 2 squadrons in my book. I am more efficient on activations and engagement space utilizing a multiplier than just bringing 2 squads. Yes Maarek is good, he is the most well rounded fighter the Empire has which is why he shows up all over the place. He also has no special abilities, and so all of his sizable point burden is solely committed to those stats. That is what makes him a good generic double tap. But there are other options to use for Jendon. For instance, early in the game against counter aces I will often double tap Valen or Saber to clear scatters without eating tons of counter. When I play, I find it is pretty rare I double tap Maarek, only when I can know I will put on 2 face up cards really. But I still consider Jendon an auto include because he can allow me to engage with 1 squad, and hit them twice. That is what I am after.

That's fair, your experience is different than mine. And fwiw, I do think you're on the right track overall--I just happen to think the chain goes further back. But breaking it at any point in the chain, whether that be at Maarek, Jendon's ability, Relay, or whatever, would remediate the issue.

15 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I agree with everything here except the use of the word “respectfully”.

F you ard. Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad about it.

Reported.

10 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Vader definitely has a lot of his own problems, but the real reason for the lack of many other pairings is that Jendon specifically buffs attacks, only, so the question is whether the pilot in question has any kind of synergy with making multiple attacks. Maarek does. Arguably IG-88 does, too, if you are squadron hunting - but then Jendon doesn't pass through a ship's Fire Control buff to help anti-squadron attacks, and as a 'Rogue' Sloane doesn't work with IG, anyway. Morna Kee and Bossk both do have 'attack' abilities, but are so overpriced as to be difficult to justify even with the doubling-discount that Jendon brings. (Although I am somewhat surprised I haven't seen more people try it, though.)

Morna is legit with Jendon, even though she's expensive. She gets that reroll whenever she attacks, so she does an average of 2.25 damage to ships with every attack and gets her brace back quickly if/when necessary. Even better against ships than Maarek, although no crits (sadly).

She's not good with Sloane, though, and given that (as I said) Sloane is effectively your only realistic option right now for going Imperial heavy squadrons, that leaves her sidelined an awful lot.

16 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I agree with everything here except the use of the word “respectfully”.

F you ard. Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad about it.

Seriously, you want to edit that post much softer....

Meh. Ard knows im playing. If someone else wants to report me they can.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Instead of at close range, should have been at range 2. Or instead of nerfing, should have released Early Warning System back in wave 5.

Black and distance 2 are practically the same.

I believe that Rhymer nerf was right on the spot, the only thing that would've made it ideal would be to change his point cost as well (although I can see why this wasn't done).

The reason I'm saying that is the following - ability to attack from medium range de-facto shuts down almost all ship-based flak.

5 minutes ago, PT106 said:

ability to attack from medium range de-facto shuts down almost all ship-based flak.

Not only that, but for whatever reason they chose to either implicitly or explicitly range limit pretty much all ship flak upgrades to less than Rhymer range. Which is dumb and bad.