For a long time, the go-to Imperial squadron set was the Rhymer ball, but with glorious major Rhymer's nerf, it seems this ancient squadron formation is no longer anywhere to be seen competitively.

Has anyone played or seen a Rhymer ball lately, and if so please share your emotionally charged anecdotes here.

Please nobody ask for data or offer to share data.

Anecdotal evidence only.

Was Rhymer nerfed too hard?

If yes, what would you have done differently?

If no, please state your reasons.

I still utilize the good Major. Short range is still a fair sight better than range 1, and still allows for a larger threat radius, one that only speed 5 enemy Squadrons, and E-wings can effectively shut down. It is not as easy to pull off as the pre-nerf medium range Rhymer, but it is still effective.

it feels harsh and very much diminished (not that I ever liked to face him), but I think its still viable. Used him lately and made Demo really reconsider his attack run...she did, nontheless, and simply died. Too severly wounded.

In my experience, dedicated bomber wings on both sides seem to have disappeared, replaced by aces or mixed relay/strats.

The real problem is that it would be far too powerful with Sloan had it not been nerfed.

I think Sloane had a lot more to do with it. If you're going to run a squad heavy imperial fleet, you're probably going to go with Sloane. If you go with Sloane, you're taking loads of aces and TIEs that can utilize her abilities. Because of this, you're looking to win the squadron war hard. Once the squadron battle is won, you don't need Rhymer's range to poke at enemy ships.

From the Imperial perspective*, I like the nerf.

I don't really play Imps competitively, but I've taken him a couple of times in casual games. He's still good for what he does, but he's never really been my cup of tea.

Here's why. I tend toward ruthless efficiency in list-building: I like things that are punishing to play but rewarding if played well. I don't take Intel if I don't have to. I play squadronless if I think I can get away with it. That kind of thing. Rhymer doesn't fit that paradigm as an auto-include drop-in, so I prefer not to take him: his purpose is to give you more flexibility in your squadron play, and loosen up the normally-rigorous positioning required to get bomber shot.

Within this framework, the problem with pre-nerf Rhymer was that he was so good that it was just an intentional self-handicap not to include him in almost any list that intended to be using squadrons to attack ships at all. You could take two bombers for about the same price, but Rhymer granted so many more shots on average over the course of any game because of that ability, that you weren't actually increasing throughput by not taking him. It wasn't a tradeoff between efficiency and flexibility, it was a tradeoff between flexibility and nothing.

The nerf allows me to make that choice now. Is it more important to me to have the flexibility to, say, stuff more squadrons into the same arc or be able to avoid multiple overlapping arcs of flak? Or is it more important to be able to squeeze that extra bomber die into my list? I like feeling like I have the freedom to make that choice.

*Yes, I normally play Rebels and thus obviously like any nerf to Imps. This is spoken with my dusty old Imperial officer's cap on.

I still use him in certain builds (Ruthless Strategists spam, notably), but the nerf hit him VERY hard. Building on the problem is that TIE Bombers are just not as easy to use as they used to be.

How about changing him to only affecting Squadrons with the Bomber keyword? Would that be OP? Feels like that would have been a better way to go if they wanted him to still see use.

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

The nerf allows me to make that choice now. Is it more important to me to have the flexibility to, say, stuff more squadrons into the same arc or be able to avoid multiple overlapping arcs of flak? Or is it more important to be able to squeeze that extra bomber die into my list? I like feeling like I have the freedom to make that choice.

I agree with this - I like being able to make lists without it being weighted towards the auto-inclusion of anything (like 3+ flotillas grumble grumble).

Personally though I think that his nerf has pushed his power level down below other strong choices for Imps, judging by his failure to appear at all at several regionals.

I agree he was too much of an autoinclude, but now I worry that he's fallen too far below. In a perfect world there would be parity and more choices.

I've actually been thinking on this for a while and have been considering an article on the blog about this very subject, so I'm glad you brought it up. Let's get into it!

Was Rhymer nerfed too hard?
For purposes of this discussion, I'm going to say "yes." The fact that Rhymer deserved a nerf of some kind seemed extremely obvious, especially with Sloane showing up. Rhymer balls were a default feature of every Imperial squad-heavy list and they made flak and some anti-squad upgrades worse because they relied on closer-ranged bomber attacks. The problem is that with Rhymer sitting out of the game it's paradoxically created less variety in Imperial fleets and had some knock-on effects for Rebel fleets. I think it's safe to posit all of the following (but I'm sure someone will disagree with me):

• Imperial squad-heavy fleets can no longer prod Rebel squadrons out of the Gallant Haven bunker by lobbing bricks at the Gallant Haven from medium range. This has led to the ubiquity of Gallant Haven in Rebel squad-heavy fleets because Imperial squad-heavy fleets now rely heavily on getting an alpha strike to clear away obstacles to going after ships, and Gallant Haven punishes them for that.
• Because Imperials lack the force multiplier effects of something like Yavaris or Adar Talon (barring Jendon, we're getting there), they had previously relied on their bombers at least being capable of hitting ships from further out (with Rhymer and speed 4) and being less squad-command-intensive to use (again, due to Rhymer). They didn't have the sheer damage efficiency of an ideal-circumstances Yavaris double-tap mob of B-Wings, but the B-Wings needed to set several things up correctly to get that reward whereas Rhymer and TIE Bomber friends (or whoever) had the benefit of easier/less complex setup.
  • With that removed, Imperial squadrons that intend to go after ships have been focused a lot more on Jendon (as he can double-tap Maarek or Morna for some smaller-scale Rebel-style squadron efficiency), which due to Relay, tends to lead to a lot of samey kind of boring fleets relying on flotillas channeling commands through Relay while running away from a fight, as opposed to Bomber Command Center Gozantis providing support closer to the fight.
  • This also inevitably makes Sloane the much more appealing (some would say only) choice for a squad-heavy Imperial commander because she doesn't care about bombers, she wants to get in and murder fighters while setting up attacks on ships for a combination with a combat ship. It means she doesn't want to invest in Bomber Command Centers, is more Relay-friendly, and isn't relying on considerations of what percentage of bombers to fighters to bring, as she's mostly concerned with what percentage of pure fighters to fighter-bombers to bring.
    • I should note it's not bad to have Sloane building fleets this way, but her presence as basically (some exceptions, I'm sure) the premiere Imperial squadron commander is largely due to the impotency of more conventional Rhymer balls that are no longer strongly competitive due to the Rhymer nerf. Sure, you can go for a TIE Bomber wing within your current squadron group and run it old-school, but you're basically getting a much worse Rebel bomber group for the investment. You really should just Sloane instead.

If yes, what would you have done differently?
Rhymer still clearly needs some kind of a nerf. On that I don't think we'll find much if any disagreement. What I would have done is changed Rhymer's text to:
"Friendly squadrons within distance 1 can attack enemy ships at close-medium range using all dice in their battery armament. If a non-TIE Bomber squadron attacks at medium range, that attack is treated as obstructed."

Two explanatory segments:
1) Within is important because it limits the effectiveness of the ball to generally squadrons in front of and basically in base to base with Rhymer. With good placement, you could finagle it to get some of those behind him as well, but it gets trickier and requires good squadron placement, especially against enemies running an effective CAP. The old at requirement allowed for Rhymer balls 2-3 squadrons deep in any direction if you wanted to, which got rather silly.
2) Penalizing non-TIE Bombers at medium range intends to cut down the possible insanity with Sloane while still offering some assistance to Imperial multi-dice bombers, such as Maarek (who probably doesn't need it, but the rest of the list does), Phantoms, Decimators, and Firesprays. It's not ideal, but it is something for those squads.

The end goal is if you want to go old-school and bring a few TIE Bomber buddies and Rhymer along, you can. If you want to bring Rhymer along for his current effect (with a smaller bubble), you can. If you want a bit of help with Firesprays and Decimators, that's cool too.

17 minutes ago, duck_bird said:

I think Sloane had a lot more to do with it. If you're going to run a squad heavy imperial fleet, you're probably going to go with Sloane. If you go with Sloane, you're taking loads of aces and TIEs that can utilize her abilities. Because of this, you're looking to win the squadron war hard. Once the squadron battle is won, you don't need Rhymer's range to poke at enemy ships.

Could have nerfed him just for Sloane, then - IE., let him work at medium range, still, but only for squadrons with the 'Heavy' keyword. *Boom*, suddenly almost all of the squadrons that would have been problematic to have Rhymer's range with Sloane's ability cannot get that combo.

I have not used rhymer since his nerf. I just bring the generic bombers now.

1 minute ago, Eggzavier said:

Personally though I think that his nerf has pushed his power level down below other strong choices for Imps, judging by his failure to appear at all at several regionals.

Wait a minute, what happened to this?:

32 minutes ago, Eggzavier said:

Please nobody ask for data or offer to share data.

I kid, I kid.

I kinda think his decline is more as a consequence of the sharp decrease in TIE Bombers showing up, because:

1 minute ago, IronNerd said:

TIE Bombers are just not as easy to use as they used to be.

I think TIE Bombers still work fine as such, it just seems like most of the people who would otherwise have brought TIE Bomber swarms are on board the Sloane hype train. Which, she is awesome, so... can't really blame them. I also happen to think she's a lot more fun than a Motti bomber swarm, but that's strictly personal preference.

I think he was. There seems to be little reason to take him now.

A better nerf I think is to undue and simply say Rhymer only affects Bomber squadrons. If you want to avoid direct Sloane interaction.

I know several competitive lists that ran him. The flexibility is still there. You are just much more restricted over the pre nerf ryhmer

The thing that really killed Rhymer wasn't just the excessive range reduction, but combining that with the BCC 'nerf' - IE., that BCC doesn't stack, now. Probably also needed to happen, but I think FFG should have done the one before the other, and measured the impact of the first change before making the other so extreme.

I can't tell you how many times I've rolled black dice to get a blank, re-rolled and got another blank, before re-rolling again to get just a hit. It stung, but at least with Rhymer, the range was far enough out from the target that my bombers could avoid its AA return fire, and my supporting BCC ships able to hang back even further enough that the enemy wasn't shooting at them, at all.

Both nerfs at the same time killed the TIE Bomber, and with TIE Bombers 'dead', Rhymer's raison d'être ceased to be.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think he was. There seems to be little reason to take him now.

A better nerf I think is to undue and simply say Rhymer only affects Bomber squadrons. If you want to avoid direct Sloane interaction.

I thought about that one - and I'd definitely love it. But keep in mind that TIE Defenders still chuck blue-dice anti-ship, and are also 'Bombers'. If the concern was Sloane's ability with Rhymer's range, then you've still got that issue.

Ergo the suggestion I made, above - apply Rhymer to 'Heavy' keyword, only. Sloane already excludes the 'Rogue' squadrons, and other squadrons with 'Heavy' (to use redux-Rhymer) and not 'Rogue'...well, I don't see those as huge issues to enable this combo with.

1 minute ago, xanderf said:

I thought about that one - and I'd definitely love it. But keep in mind that TIE Defenders still chuck blue-dice anti-ship, and are also 'Bombers'. If the concern was Sloane's ability with Rhymer's range, then you've still got that issue.

I think this is acceptable.

3 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Ergo the suggestion I made, above - apply Rhymer to 'Heavy' keyword, only. Sloane already excludes the 'Rogue' squadrons, and other squadrons with 'Heavy' (to use redux-Rhymer) and not 'Rogue'...well, I don't see those as huge issues to enable this combo with.

I don't like Rhymer working on Heavy, as it creates weird rules interactions when an enemy Intel squadron is debuffing your squads, which weirdly would activate the Rhymer buff.

18 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

From the Imperial perspective*, I like the nerf.

*Yes, I normally play Rebels and thus obviously like any nerf to Imps. This is spoken with my dusty old Imperial officer's cap on.

Step aside, imposter.

@Eggzavier, allow a real Imperial to answer your question. His decline is more as a consequence of the sharp decrease in TIE Bombers showing up.

I was a big Major Rhymer player (before it was cool ; before people were convinced that squadrons were worth their points), and Major Rhymer was entirely worth it. From the perspective of then, I think the nerf they employed was justified. However, as more fighter squadrons show up, the less bombers are a safe bet. We've been in an upswing of the squadron game, and Rhymerballs just don't work well in that meta. Perhaps if squadronless becomes more of a thing, the Rhymerball will be back.

That's my thoughts on the matter. I think @Snipafist's alternate nerf idea is interesting, but I think Rhymer is going to remain as nerfed as he is.

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

I don't like Rhymer working on Heavy, as it creates weird rules interactions when an enemy Intel squadron is debuffing your squads, which weirdly would activate the Rhymer buff.

Well:

1. I sort of think that's all kinds of awesome, as it gives a counter-play to Intel, which doesn't really have one at the moment
2. I also don't think it'd ever happen - who is going to bring Rhymer with a bunch of non-'heavy' squadrons hoping that the enemy brings Intel along, and then throws the Intel ship into your squadron group, to enable your Rhymer to buff the friendly attacks? That doesn't seem likely...

1 minute ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

His decline is more as a consequence of the sharp decrease in TIE Bombers showing up.

I disagree.

I kinda think his decline is more as a consequence of the sharp decrease in TIE Bombers showing up.

Just now, xanderf said:

Well:

1. I sort of think that's all kinds of awesome, as it gives a counter-play to Intel, which doesn't really have one at the moment
2. I also don't think it'd ever happen - who is going to bring Rhymer with a bunch of non-'heavy' squadrons hoping that the enemy brings Intel along, and then throws the Intel ship into your squadron group, to enable your Rhymer to buff the friendly attacks? That doesn't seem likely...

In response to #2, you wouldn't bring him specifically in case of Intel. You'd bring him for whatever other normal purpose and then suddenly your TIE Fighters/Defenders/whatever that were escorting your Rhymerball would also get to use Rhymer. It's rather silly.

40 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

From the Imperial perspective*, I like the nerf.

I don't really play Imps competitively, but I've taken him a couple of times in casual games. He's still good for what he does, but he's never really been my cup of tea.

Here's why. I tend toward ruthless efficiency in list-building: I like things that are punishing to play but rewarding if played well. I don't take Intel if I don't have to. I play squadronless if I think I can get away with it. That kind of thing. Rhymer doesn't fit that paradigm as an auto-include drop-in, so I prefer not to take him: his purpose is to give you more flexibility in your squadron play, and loosen up the normally-rigorous positioning required to get bomber shot.

Within this framework, the problem with pre-nerf Rhymer was that he was so good that it was just an intentional self-handicap not to include him in almost any list that intended to be using squadrons to attack ships at all. You could take two bombers for about the same price, but Rhymer granted so many more shots on average over the course of any game because of that ability, that you weren't actually increasing throughput by not taking him. It wasn't a tradeoff between efficiency and flexibility, it was a tradeoff between flexibility and nothing.

The nerf allows me to make that choice now. Is it more important to me to have the flexibility to, say, stuff more squadrons into the same arc or be able to avoid multiple overlapping arcs of flak? Or is it more important to be able to squeeze that extra bomber die into my list? I like feeling like I have the freedom to make that choice.

*Yes, I normally play Rebels and thus obviously like any nerf to Imps. This is spoken with my dusty old Imperial officer's cap on.

Allow me to answer as a player that is still mostly Imperial: Rhymer was so powerful that it was a punishment to not include him in any fleets. He also single handedly made most ship's anti squadron armaments and upgrades useless for competitive play.

We don't see him now because frankly there are better squadron compositions now that Relay lets you chase ships anywhere.

Instead of at close range, should have been at range 2. Or instead of nerfing, should have released Early Warning System back in wave 5.