1 minute ago, Tvboy said:

That's what the gif meant, he was about to argue with you but then had to stop and think about it and realized that he couldn't actually argue with that. I thought it was a very clever gif.

Lol, no. Much simpler. It was me being struck speechless by the very idea of a 12 point fortress since the entire concept of the point fortress is invalidated by the low value not to mention how it's not even remotely relevant in that particular matchup. Even if the Z was completely immune to damage, which it's very much not, it would not be an effective points fortress since it doesn't actually out value anything by itself. You can have something of a "swarm fortress" of multiple low value ultra defensive ships, quad Wookie Libertarians is an example, but it's only as fortressy as the ship with the lowest defensive value. In this case a Z plus something else and that something else is rolling 1 green...

6 hours ago, Makaze said:

Lol, no. Much simpler. It was me being struck speechless by the very idea of a 12 point fortress since the entire concept of the point fortress is invalidated by the low value not to mention how it's not even remotely relevant in that particular matchup. Even if the Z was completely immune to damage, which it's very much not, it would not be an effective points fortress since it doesn't actually out value anything by itself. You can have something of a "swarm fortress" of multiple low value ultra defensive ships, quad Wookie Libertarians is an example, but it's only as fortressy as the ship with the lowest defensive value. In this case a Z plus something else and that something else is rolling 1 green...

Oh, well the gif you used shows Mal about to argue and then realizing he has nothing to say.

It's important to remember that bbbbz was a list that was at its strongest when X-Wing tournaments had 60 minute rounds and TIE swarms were actually still a thing. When we switched to 75 minute rounds, BBBBZ performance started to go down. Back in those days when we didn't have TLTs and Harpoon missiles, a Z-95 on the lam could actually survive at range 3 against a scattered list after they spent their alpha strike on a B-Wing. As soon as any of those ships got close to dying, the BBBBZ would have that ship run away to deny points and win on MOV. Every ship in the list was a points fortress, that's why it did so well in timed games.

3 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Oh, well the gif you used shows Mal about to argue and then realizing he has nothing to say.

It's important to remember that bbbbz was a list that was at its strongest when X-Wing tournaments had 60 minute rounds and TIE swarms were actually still a thing. When we switched to 75 minute rounds, BBBBZ performance started to go down. Back in those days when we didn't have TLTs and Harpoon missiles, a Z-95 on the lam could actually survive at range 3 against a scattered list after they spent their alpha strike on a B-Wing. As soon as any of those ships got close to dying, the BBBBZ would have that ship run away to deny points and win on MOV. Every ship in the list was a points fortress, that's why it did so well in timed games.

Exactly so. In a longer game that's likely to go to the death, I'd rather junk the Z-95 and spend 3 points per ship on upgrades - giving the M-12's cruise missiles for the opening volley, for example.

10 hours ago, wurms said:

Definitely need to try this:

NNNNA

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Guidance Chips (0)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Guidance Chips (0)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Guidance Chips (0)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Plasma Torpedoes (3)
XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)
Guidance Chips (0)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Plasma w/ focus and chips is 3.64 expected hits, compared to LRS Harpoons 3.75, however, dont forget the +1 shield damage plasma effect on anything with more than 3 shields *cough* Bwings *cough*, and no range bonus vs the other lists either. Will miss Harpoon splash damage, but tracers are more reliable with blackone and countermeasures, etc. out there.

So it is on the initial engage 10.92 damage + most likely 1 or 2 shield taken away vs 15 damage. Meaning that you have a good chance to remove two with harpoons, while you will not remove two with the plasmas. The next turn everyone bails out to reload, but because you don't have the missile boat title, you can not gain an advantage by getting off tracers to spread new target locks for everyone ....

I don't think plasma are the answer here. Having ONE with plasmas might be still a good idea. Leaving the Academy at home might be even better ... not 100% sure if the blocker can actually block effectively. Those gunboats have rather decent dials and plenty of options.

16 hours ago, viedit said:

Yeah I know. But that's one of the win conditions of the list. Keeping points on the table for a timed match. The Z was sort of 12 point locker that you could bail out faster than the B's. Use it's higher agility and keep it at range 3.

Can't you just take a 12 pts initiative bid at that point ?

then the points are completely safe unless you lose your entire squad.

@Tvboy explained it very well earlier. BBBBZ was an inelegant weapon in a more civilized time

60 minute matches(****, some small tournaments were 45!) and far less dice modifications and alpha strike capabilities made BBBBZ a much different list than it is today. In it's time it was an incredibly efficient health to red dice ratio and how you played it and won with it was different.

17 hours ago, Dasharr said:

I'm not sold on the 'vipers. The bendy barrel roll is cool and fun and useful, but on generics you run the risk of swooshing about with no dice mods and unreliable attack and defence.

I do agree that the best 12-point filler for scum is Sunny Bounder with the Light title. Particularly in the combo with the Kimogilas where the Scyk's better dial (compared to the Z) helps offset the pilot skill difference from the Kimogilas. So I'd prefer to amend the OP's list to replace the Z with Sunny in the M3-A. I don't know if MMMM + other M makes for a catchy list name though!

Same impression here. SV mkII is total fun, but you need some dice mods (Guri or FCS etc), you need to kill and not just dance around making cool moves. And green dice are fickle (PRS on 4 costs 8pts). So I am neither sold on multiple Vipers.

Sunny's Killerkoalas