Introducing... the Fly Casual Nice Guy

By E Chu Ta, in X-Wing

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/268072-introducingthe-scrub/

In response to this heaping pile of hot off the presses wisdom that is extremely current and releventm I present a counterpoint:

So far you have learned only obvious and mundane things. I know that taking the first step can be the hardest part of the journey, so I wanted to coddle you a little just to get you going. The coddling stops here. You must now understand the cold, hard truth of competition. This is the difficult part to accept. This is the part that will upset you. You will have many defense mechanisms that will tell you that I am wrong, but I assure you with certainty that on this point I am delivering divine truth directly to you.

Introducing...the Fly Casual Nice Guy

The derogatory term “Fly Casual Nice Guy” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as Fly Casual Nice Guys, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A Fly Casual Nice Guy is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A Fly Casual Nice Guy does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become an Insufferable Screeching WAAC-Off. In reality, the “Fly Casual Nice Guy” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The Fly Casual Nice Guy has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The Fly Casual Nice Guy would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: X-Wing Miniatures.

In X-Wing Miniatures, the Fly Casual Nice Guy labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the Fly Casual Nice Guy. Performing a turret on someone is often called cheap. A turret is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the turret is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and arc-dodges and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, turreting is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the Fly Casual Nice Guy has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while arc-dodgeing. The Fly Casual Nice Guy thinks of arc-dodgeing as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You will not see a classic Fly Casual Nice Guy turret his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the Fly Casual Nice Guy is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a Fly Casual Nice Guy by turreting projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you turret him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you arc-dodge for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. X-Wing Miniatures was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the Fly Casual Nice Guy. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the Fly Casual Nice Guy not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a insufferable Screeching WAAC-Off is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the Fly Casual Nice Guy is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the Fly Casual Nice Guy has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.

Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of Tryhard Wannabes and a group of Fly Casual Nice Guys. The Fly Casual Nice Guys will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The Tryhard Wannabes will. The Tryhard Wannabes will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite subtle and difficult to discover. Knowing the counter tactic prevents the other player from using his tactic, but he can then use a counter to your counter. You are now afraid to use your counter and the opponent can go back to sneaking in the original overpowering tactic. This concept will be covered in much more detail later.

The Tryhard Wannabes are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let’s return to the group of Fly Casual Nice Guys. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the Fly Casual Nice Guy can even imagine. Turreting together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the Fly Casual Nice Guys with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the Fly Casual Nice Guys have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the Fly Casual Nice Guys were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

The Fly Casual Nice Guy has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is. In X-Wing Miniatures, Fly Casual Nice Guys often cling to jousters as a measure of skill. A jouster is a sequence of moves that is unarc-dodgeable if the first move hits. Jousters can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take “skill,” according to the Fly Casual Nice Guy. The “S-Loop” or “T-Roll” in X-Wing Miniatures is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any Fly Casual Nice Guy and they will tell you that a S-Loop is a “skill move.”

I once played a Fly Casual Nice Guy who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult S-Loops. He cried cheap when I turreted him five times in a row asking, “Is that all you know how to do? Turret?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that Fly Casual Nice Guy’s life. He could either ignore his losses and continue living in his mental prison or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.” (Though chess tournaments do sometimes have prizes for “brilliancies,” moves that are strokes of genius.) Many Fly Casual Nice Guys have strong ties to “innovation.” They say, “That guy didn’t do anything new, so he is no good.” Or “person X invented that technique and person Y just stole it.” Well, person Y might be one hundred times better than person X, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the Fly Casual Nice Guy. When person Y wins the tournament and person X is a forgotten footnote, what will the Fly Casual Nice Guy say? That person Y has “no skill” of course.

You can gain some standing in a gaming community by playing in an innovative way, but that should not be the ultimate goal. Innovation is merely one of many tools that may or may not help you reach victory. The goal is to play as excellently as possible. The goal is to win.

giphy.gif

Scrub or Casual....I dont really think it helps to label anyone that way.

I always thought Fly Casual meant something very very different in X-Wing culture.

Older players will know better than me but I believe there was a time before the dark times when the best players in the game basically laid out this way of being that was just chill.

Legend says it was this relaxed mentality that revolved around just being a cool dude no matter whats happening on the table.

Don't lose your mind about bumps and other stuff.

Try to keep an open mind about all lists both good and bad.

Its ok to have strong opinions about ship or card design but dont let that conflict with sportsmanship during an actual game.

Basically it was a mentality about dialing back the nerd rage and embracing our inner Han Solo.

Have fun, be nice to your opponent, and welcoming to new players.

Had nothing to do with avoiding a list or tactics or skill or competitiveness as far as I am aware.

Ya know....just Fly Casual man.

Call it whatever you want...but basically play X-Wing like you are this guy:

Han-Solo.gif

Do you think he would endlessly complain about anything?

Nah.

He would just smile make some funny comments and probably win in the process.

Be more like Han Solo and less like Ben Solo

giphy.gif

Edited by Boom Owl
21 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Basically it was a mentality about dialing back the nerd rage and embracing our inner Han Solo.

My inner Han Solo shot Greedo.

First.

What do I do about that??

hanshotfirst.jpg

18 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

My inner Han Solo shot Greedo.

First.

What do I do about that??

hanshotfirst.jpg

Sounds correct to me. Might consider taking a bid so you can move last instead?

Edited by Boom Owl

Boom Owl, I am sorry I can't give that more likes.

I play with self-imposed limitations. I enjoy the game. I do my best that my fellow players (the one on the other side of the table) also enjoy the game. Should I stop going to tournaments? I don't think so. I like to play other players. In most cases I end in the midfield.

Just don't take this game too seriously. Fly Casual folks!

Edited by Jiron

>In X-Wing Miniatures, the Fly Casual Nice Guy labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap."

Traj + Genius is cheap and over powered. We had a tournament this past weekend and NO-ONE took Traj + Genius? Why? Because WE ALL KNOW it was OP and broken as. People who abuse the game are the problem with x-wing. Sane people who know that something is OP and needs to be nerfed are the ones keeping this game afloat. Not the Try Hard Tournament Wanna be's who abuse the game system.

Who cares?

Just don't be a whiner when things don't go your way.

27 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

We had a tournament this past weekend and NO-ONE took Traj + Genius? Why? Because WE ALL KNOW it was OP and broken as. People who abuse the game are the problem with x-wing. Sane people who know that something is OP and needs to be nerfed are the ones keeping this game afloat.

How big/what level was the tournament? The entire field being made up of Fly Casual Nice guys suggests not large or important. You posit that "sane people," by which I take you to mean "people who play like you do," are keeping this game afloat. The article posits that you are all content to live in a mental prison, refusing to challenge yourselves in the crucible of true competition by setting self imposed limits that stunt your grownth. Some would argue that only by exposing the flaws of the game, by brutally and systematically exposing them on the largest possible stage for as long as necessary will the powers that be take notice and fix what was broken.

I've never seen a post more smug or self-righteous than this one.

2 hours ago, E Chu Ta said:

A Fly Casual Nice Guy is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A Fly Casual Nice Guy does not play to win.

The first step in becoming a insufferable Screeching WAAC-Off is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

The goal is to win.

Well you have some interesting points although it was a bit...long. The only one I really want to address is from these above excerpts of text from your post (though I think they pretty much represent the entire sentiment of your post).

Basically, I don't think THE goal of a game is to win. It may be A goal, but I would argue there are many other reasons to play games--even competitive ones. Moreover, "the game" may not know "rules of honor or of cheapness" best guess what? Your opponent sure does.

Long story short, I think your points borderline (or perhaps meet) a win-at-all-costs mentality which may be one of the worst aspects of any competitive sport or game and is a slippery slope to a toxic player community.

Also, the most well respected athletes may have win-at-all costs mentalities BUT the best ones also have something which your post doesn't mention at all. Sportsmanship.

I certainly play with my own self imposed limitations.

I'm about to go to my first Regionals and I'm not going to fly NymMiranda. I enjoy flying both ships, I"m decent at flying them. I even have them both painted in a similar paint scheme out of sheer coincidence. But I'm not going to fly that list. Because everybody hates that list...

1)People complain about it and don't want to see it. I don't want my opponent to walk up and say, "Ah this crap again...I hate this list and just played this same game." That's not fun for my opponent. And if my opponent is having less fun, I'll have less fun.

2)If my opponent is super competitive and wants to play the highest lists, he'll surely see plenty of other people playing the list. But hopefully my list won't be too bad and will give him a new puzzle to solve.

3)If I do happen to do well anyway, I'll have that much more satisfaction from being a special little snowflake.

4) [Other reasons that probably exist.]

Sure I'm probably playing the game wrong by going to have a good time and not expecting to win my first regional. But I'm okay with that, and if the people that do expect to win want to stomp me, I'm ready for that and okay with that. That said, I'll still take a good list and try my best to do well. But I want to contribute to a healthy environment and this is one way that I can do that other than asking FFG to fix the rules so I don't have to feel bad about taking stuff people don't like.

2 hours ago, E Chu Ta said:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/268072-introducingthe-scrub/

In response to this heaping pile of hot off the presses wisdom that is extremely current and releventm I present a counterpoint:

So far you have learned only obvious and mundane things. I know that taking the first step can be the hardest part of the journey, so I wanted to coddle you a little just to get you going. The coddling stops here. You must now understand the cold, hard truth of competition. This is the difficult part to accept. This is the part that will upset you. You will have many defense mechanisms that will tell you that I am wrong, but I assure you with certainty that on this point I am delivering divine truth directly to you.

Introducing...the Fly Casual Nice Guy

The derogatory term “Fly Casual Nice Guy” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as Fly Casual Nice Guys, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A Fly Casual Nice Guy is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A Fly Casual Nice Guy does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become an Insufferable Screeching WAAC-Off. In reality, the “Fly Casual Nice Guy” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The Fly Casual Nice Guy has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The Fly Casual Nice Guy would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: X-Wing Miniatures.

In X-Wing Miniatures, the Fly Casual Nice Guy labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the Fly Casual Nice Guy. Performing a turret on someone is often called cheap. A turret is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the turret is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and arc-dodges and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, turreting is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the Fly Casual Nice Guy has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while arc-dodgeing. The Fly Casual Nice Guy thinks of arc-dodgeing as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You will not see a classic Fly Casual Nice Guy turret his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the Fly Casual Nice Guy is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a Fly Casual Nice Guy by turreting projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you turret him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you arc-dodge for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. X-Wing Miniatures was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the Fly Casual Nice Guy. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the Fly Casual Nice Guy not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a insufferable Screeching WAAC-Off is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the Fly Casual Nice Guy is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the Fly Casual Nice Guy has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.

Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of Tryhard Wannabes and a group of Fly Casual Nice Guys. The Fly Casual Nice Guys will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The Tryhard Wannabes will. The Tryhard Wannabes will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite subtle and difficult to discover. Knowing the counter tactic prevents the other player from using his tactic, but he can then use a counter to your counter. You are now afraid to use your counter and the opponent can go back to sneaking in the original overpowering tactic. This concept will be covered in much more detail later.

The Tryhard Wannabes are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let’s return to the group of Fly Casual Nice Guys. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the Fly Casual Nice Guy can even imagine. Turreting together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the Fly Casual Nice Guys with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the Fly Casual Nice Guys have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the Fly Casual Nice Guys were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

The Fly Casual Nice Guy has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is. In X-Wing Miniatures, Fly Casual Nice Guys often cling to jousters as a measure of skill. A jouster is a sequence of moves that is unarc-dodgeable if the first move hits. Jousters can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take “skill,” according to the Fly Casual Nice Guy. The “S-Loop” or “T-Roll” in X-Wing Miniatures is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any Fly Casual Nice Guy and they will tell you that a S-Loop is a “skill move.”

I once played a Fly Casual Nice Guy who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult S-Loops. He cried cheap when I turreted him five times in a row asking, “Is that all you know how to do? Turret?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that Fly Casual Nice Guy’s life. He could either ignore his losses and continue living in his mental prison or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.” (Though chess tournaments do sometimes have prizes for “brilliancies,” moves that are strokes of genius.) Many Fly Casual Nice Guys have strong ties to “innovation.” They say, “That guy didn’t do anything new, so he is no good.” Or “person X invented that technique and person Y just stole it.” Well, person Y might be one hundred times better than person X, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the Fly Casual Nice Guy. When person Y wins the tournament and person X is a forgotten footnote, what will the Fly Casual Nice Guy say? That person Y has “no skill” of course.

You can gain some standing in a gaming community by playing in an innovative way, but that should not be the ultimate goal. Innovation is merely one of many tools that may or may not help you reach victory. The goal is to play as excellently as possible. The goal is to win.

If what you say is true, and I disagree with most of it, then the flip side of FCNG, is the WAAC.

The WAAC will abuse the rules and his opponent. He'll bring obnoxious lists, read tournament level, to a friendly game. There was a contributor here that would ask to do a forgotten action, then deny his opponent the same courtesy. In a tournament, no less.

There's also the guy that complains about your list during game night at the FLGS because it's OP or NPE then runs it the next four weeks. Then rejoices in his victory. Loudly.

Don't get me wrong. I play to win. If I lose to a superior player or list, I'll congratulate him. If I lose because of my stupidity, I'll still congratulate him and try to remember not to do something stupid again.

I play because I enjoy the game. When it's no longer fun or when all I face are WAAC jobs I'll quit. In the meantime I'll be the FCNG. I don't see the title of FCNG as derogatory. Nor do I see it as a badge of honor. It just means I recognize X-wing as a game, simple as that. I'm not defined by the game. I don't find personal validation in the game. It's a means to an end. That end is to make new friends, have some cheap fun and decompress.

If your view of the FCNG is as dim as it appears from your post, then I'm not sure why you play games at all.

Stoneface, I agree 100%. Only a game. A simple and funny game...

2 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

Sane people who know that something is OP and needs to be nerfed are the ones keeping this game afloat. Not the Try Hard Tournament Wanna be's who abuse the game system.

What makes you so sure the two are mutual exclusive?

I haven't heard many people claiming that Trajectory Simulator+Genius wasn't too strong. However, as long as it's there and your goal is to win (there wouldn't be much sense to have tournaments if a significant number of participants didn't have 'win' as their main goal), not taking it would be doing yourself a disservice.

Then there's also the argument that, the more exposure an overpowered tactic gets, the sooner it gets fixed.

I particularly disagree with the notion that a FCNG does not see the full depth of a game because of his self imposed limitations and casual approach.

I would say a WAAC guy does not see the full depth of a game, because his overwhelming need to win blinds him as to how and why games even exist.

Community.

Can't have a community, and thus a game, without nice guys and gals.

Why would a FCNG not seek to be the best and use the best? Interest and variety. A desire to explore the full depth of a game, not just the top 5% of it. And perhaps an understanding of the real, unadulterated divine truth. We can't all be the best. But we can all have fun.

7 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I particularly disagree with the notion that a FCNG does not see the full depth of a game because of his self imposed limitations and casual approach.

I would say a WAAC guy does not see the full depth of a game, because his overwhelming need to win blinds him as to how and why games even exist.

Community.

Can't have a community, and thus a game, without nice guys and gals.

Why would a FCNG not seek to be the best and use the best? Interest and variety. A desire to explore the full depth of a game, not just the top 5% of it. And perhaps an understanding of the real, unadulterated divine truth. We can't all be the best. But we can all have fun.

All of that breaks when the FCNG starts to berate the WAAC guy for his choice of how to play the game and to imply that it's less valid than the FCNG's choice of how to play the game.

OP, Impressive. Every word you typed is wrong.

I’m so glad I’m pretty much guaranteed never to meet you or play with you.

Fly casual! (You keep saying that phrase. It doesn’t mean what you think it means!)

3 hours ago, E Chu Ta said:

Introducing...the Fly Casual Nice Guy

I consider this a load of tripe.

1 hour ago, Gibbilo said:

Basically, I don't think THE goal of a game is to win. It may be A goal, but I would argue there are many other reasons to play games--even competitive ones. Moreover, "the game" may not know "rules of honor or of cheapness" best guess what? Your opponent sure does.

I think this really nails it. The false assumption that Win At All Costs is the goal is the root error of this line of thought. It's not "winning" that really matters. It's having fun. You can lose and still have fun.

The idea that the FCNG doesn't know how to play is also wrong. Perhaps he does, but chooses not to play the WAAC reindeer games. I was a tournament guy before I abandoned it for a more Casual attitude. It was simply more fun.

It's also true that neither way is the "right" way. Play how you want, but don' disparage the other player.

Is there a TL;DR version of all of this?

"Fly Casual" means have fun.

it means we're living out a silly fantasy by playing with toy spaceships, and treating it as anything but a bit of fun to share with your opponent is both missing the point and bad sportsmanship.

It means that the only purpose of tournaments is to compete with other people super excited about the game, and while winning is cool and rewarding, its not the point.

"Pew Pew" is basically this games motto, not "did you even read spreadsheets about powerlevel? noob"

relax

7 hours ago, E Chu Ta said:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/268072-introducingthe-scrub/

In response to this heaping pile of hot off the presses wisdom that is extremely current and releventm I present a counterpoint:

So far you have learned only obvious and mundane things. I know that taking the first step can be the hardest part of the journey, so I wanted to coddle you a little just to get you going. The coddling stops here. You must now understand the cold, hard truth of competition. This is the difficult part to accept. This is the part that will upset you. You will have many defense mechanisms that will tell you that I am wrong, but I assure you with certainty that on this point I am delivering divine truth directly to you.

Introducing...the Fly Casual Nice Guy

The derogatory term “Fly Casual Nice Guy” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as Fly Casual Nice Guys, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A Fly Casual Nice Guy is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A Fly Casual Nice Guy does not play to win.

Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become an Insufferable Screeching WAAC-Off. In reality, the “Fly Casual Nice Guy” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The Fly Casual Nice Guy has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

The Fly Casual Nice Guy would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: X-Wing Miniatures.

In X-Wing Miniatures, the Fly Casual Nice Guy labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the Fly Casual Nice Guy. Performing a turret on someone is often called cheap. A turret is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the turret is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and arc-dodges and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, turreting is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the Fly Casual Nice Guy has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while arc-dodgeing. The Fly Casual Nice Guy thinks of arc-dodgeing as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You will not see a classic Fly Casual Nice Guy turret his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the Fly Casual Nice Guy is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a Fly Casual Nice Guy by turreting projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you turret him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you arc-dodge for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. X-Wing Miniatures was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the Fly Casual Nice Guy. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the Fly Casual Nice Guy not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a insufferable Screeching WAAC-Off is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the Fly Casual Nice Guy is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the Fly Casual Nice Guy has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.

Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of Tryhard Wannabes and a group of Fly Casual Nice Guys. The Fly Casual Nice Guys will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The Tryhard Wannabes will. The Tryhard Wannabes will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite subtle and difficult to discover. Knowing the counter tactic prevents the other player from using his tactic, but he can then use a counter to your counter. You are now afraid to use your counter and the opponent can go back to sneaking in the original overpowering tactic. This concept will be covered in much more detail later.

The Tryhard Wannabes are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let’s return to the group of Fly Casual Nice Guys. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the Fly Casual Nice Guy can even imagine. Turreting together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the Fly Casual Nice Guys with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the Fly Casual Nice Guys have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the Fly Casual Nice Guys were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

The Fly Casual Nice Guy has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is. In X-Wing Miniatures, Fly Casual Nice Guys often cling to jousters as a measure of skill. A jouster is a sequence of moves that is unarc-dodgeable if the first move hits. Jousters can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take “skill,” according to the Fly Casual Nice Guy. The “S-Loop” or “T-Roll” in X-Wing Miniatures is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any Fly Casual Nice Guy and they will tell you that a S-Loop is a “skill move.”

I once played a Fly Casual Nice Guy who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult S-Loops. He cried cheap when I turreted him five times in a row asking, “Is that all you know how to do? Turret?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that Fly Casual Nice Guy’s life. He could either ignore his losses and continue living in his mental prison or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.” (Though chess tournaments do sometimes have prizes for “brilliancies,” moves that are strokes of genius.) Many Fly Casual Nice Guys have strong ties to “innovation.” They say, “That guy didn’t do anything new, so he is no good.” Or “person X invented that technique and person Y just stole it.” Well, person Y might be one hundred times better than person X, but that doesn’t seem to matter to the Fly Casual Nice Guy. When person Y wins the tournament and person X is a forgotten footnote, what will the Fly Casual Nice Guy say? That person Y has “no skill” of course.

You can gain some standing in a gaming community by playing in an innovative way, but that should not be the ultimate goal. Innovation is merely one of many tools that may or may not help you reach victory. The goal is to play as excellently as possible. The goal is to win.

I have a very good response to this, but I'm not interested in any warning points. Your a smart guy and like to win, so I'm sure you can figure the sentence out for yourself.

8 hours ago, LordBlades said:

All of that breaks when the FCNG starts to berate the WAAC guy for his choice of how to play the game and to imply that it's less valid than the FCNG's choice of how to play the game.

Your definition of a WAAC and FCNG may be different. A FCNG wouldn't berate a WAAC job. He just wouldn't play him if he has a choice. Also a WAAC may be a hyper-competitive player but a hyper-competitive player isn't necessarily a WAAC job. As someone mentioned above, the OP failed to mention Sportsmanship. WAAC jobs lack it.

31 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Your definition of a WAAC and FCNG may be different. A FCNG wouldn't berate a WAAC job. He just wouldn't play him if he has a choice. Also a WAAC may be a hyper-competitive player but a hyper-competitive player isn't necessarily a WAAC job. As someone mentioned above, the OP failed to mention Sportsmanship. WAAC jobs lack it.

I was trying to go with the OP definition of FCNG which, by my understanding was somewhat ironic. What I was referring to is what I'd call the 'militant casual': he embraces what he understands Fly Casual to be, he tries to stay away from stuff he perceives as 'cheap', 'OP' or 'not fun' but if somebody beats him with any of the tactics, ships and attitudes he disapproves of, then he's a terrible no skill WAAC person.

The kind of guy who allows you a missed opportunity in round 1 and then tries to guilt/shame you into allowing 10+ missed opportunities and sloppy bumps a game because 'just Fly Casual, man!'

20 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I was trying to go with the OP definition of FCNG which, by my understanding was somewhat ironic. What I was referring to is what I'd call the 'militant casual': he embraces what he understands Fly Casual to be, he tries to stay away from stuff he perceives as 'cheap', 'OP' or 'not fun' but if somebody beats him with any of the tactics, ships and attitudes he disapproves of, then he's a terrible no skill WAAC person.

The kind of guy who allows you a missed opportunity in round 1 and then tries to guilt/shame you into allowing 10+ missed opportunities and sloppy bumps a game because 'just Fly Casual, man!'

I see said the blind man!

It's hard to remember the entirety of the OPs post. You're right though, I forgot about the Militant Fly Casual player. Fortunately, in our small group, he's absent.

9 hours ago, LordBlades said:

All of that breaks when the FCNG starts to berate the WAAC guy for his choice of how to play the game and to imply that it's less valid than the FCNG's choice of how to play the game.

That's fair. Tbh, I kind of semi TL:DRd the OP and missed the militant casual aspect.

I guess my 2nd point of disagreement then, is with the use of Fly Casual and Nice Guy in a negative context :D

I have encountered tryhards of both stripes in my gaming history, the winner and the hipster, berating each other always precludes any nice guyness.