I've been seeing a lot of no-squadron builds, but even more common are Rebel builds with Shaara and Tycho, sometimes with two more A-Wings. It's almost a requirement. The Empire seems to field Cienna and Rudor (?) as a default, although there are certainly larger aceballs that show up.

The severely stereotyped Rebel squadron play and lack of diversity seems awfully stale to me. I don't mind that as a very good build, but it shouldn't be an auto-include.

I'm not seeing much staleness, everyone has their own take on things. My Wave 4-6 list had 2 E-wings, Shara, VCX, Rogue, and an X-wing in it, for example. I'm seeing lots of mixes of Biggs/Jan, etc. It's just that Shara and Tycho are the best way to tie things up for a minimal investment, likewise with Cienna and Valen. The synergies make certain pairings more effective than others.

Well unless I'm going bombers it's shara and tycho to distract enemy squadrons and the rest of My points goes too ships. Maybe 2 more a wings or 1 a-wing and rouge squadron.

If I'm going bombers it's either B-wings or nora wexley boosted y-wings with an escort of Jan and x-wings.

So many squadrons and rouges just don't seem worth it, either they cost too much for what they bring or they give me too many squadrons to activate.

1 minute ago, elbmc1969 said:

I've been seeing a lot of no-squadron builds, but even more common are Rebel builds with Shaara and Tycho, sometimes with two more A-Wings. It's almost a requirement. The Empire seems to field Cienna and Rudor (?) as a default, although there are certainly larger aceballs that show up.

The severely stereotyped Rebel squadron play and lack of diversity seems awfully stale to me. I don't mind that as a very good build, but it shouldn't be an auto-include.

A-wings are great interceptors, and are an easy way to try to hold up squadrons at a distance. Jan Ors and 3 x-wings works too, if you're going for a more defensive fleet. Or 4 YT2400s. They're investing minimal points in the squadron game in order to invest more in the ship game.

As for pushing back against it, I brought 2 x-wings, Jan, gold, and 2 b-wings to Indianapolis. Once the a-wings are dead or contained, you can start hitting ships with it. If you make it so your traditional opponents need to do something more than their basic Shara/Tycho pairing in order to not lose, then you're already having an impact.

1 minute ago, Formynder4 said:

The synergies make certain pairings more effective than others.

I get that and it's exactly my point. There seem to be two pairings that are head and shoulders above the rest, to the point that there's no other good default choice, and you just take them in fleets that otherwise have no squadrons. I just want to see diversity in minimum-squadron choices.

I think definitive statements are going out with the new wave havisng so much Squad-alternative and Squad-hate options...

this needs to shake out before we look at it, I feel...

Imho the problem is (most of) the aces are too good for their cost. Why take a normal Tie-fighter when an ace costs only 5 points more, increases average survivability significantly, does more damage, and comes with a potent special rule.

Whatever squadron I pick I’m usually thinking ‘for just X points more I can take an ace instead’ which imho both dumbs down the squadron game (as its all about the best ace combo) and makes it bothersome due to all the special rules/effects that come into play.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

I think definitive statements are going out with the new wave havisng so much Squad-alternative and Squad-hate options...

this needs to shake out before we look at it, I feel...

How are those new upgrades likely to change the things with the best synergies? Going on Lord Tareq's point are they likely to make generics more appealing than aces?

Jonus Ciena has started appearing a bit, along with Shara Awing VCX VCX.

Much more diversity at the high squadron numbers.

Just now, Frimmel said:

How are those new upgrades likely to change the things with the best synergies? Going on Lord Tareq's point are they likely to make generics more appealing than aces?

Is Tycho and Shara - a listed minimum favour - going to be as good when there are ships out there getting bonus dice on them?

Are the presence of squads which punish over long terms compared to just doing a damage going to show that a bare minimum screen is not an answer in their own?

maybe. That’s is what I need to feel needs to shake out.

20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Is Tycho and Shara - a listed minimum favour - going to be as good when there are ships out there getting bonus dice on them?

Are the presence of squads which punish over long terms compared to just doing a damage going to show that a bare minimum screen is not an answer in their own?

maybe. That’s is what I need to feel needs to shake out.

I fear there's going to be even more of a rock paper scissors effect going on. Those new upgrades are great if the opposing fleet has certain types Squadron bills, otherwise they are just wasted points. So, how often will you be facing Squadron build that makes those effective? It's going to take some time to see the meta develop, but my suspicion is that we will see a burst of anti-squadron ship upgrades, followed by their disappearance in most cases. They're just too specialized.

But what do I know? Not much!

40 minutes ago, Lord Tareq said:

Imho the problem is (most of) the aces are too good for their cost. Why take a normal Tie-fighter when an ace costs only 5 points more, increases average survivability significantly, does more damage, and comes with a potent special rule.

Whatever squadron I pick I’m usually thinking ‘for just X points more I can take an ace instead’ which imho both dumbs down the squadron game (as its all about the best ace combo) and makes it bothersome due to all the special rules/effects that come into play.

This is it I think. Generics are too expensive or aces too cheap. I was pondering on the effect of having a single brace or scatter token for all generics and quickly realized a scatter would be too powerful. A single brace could be a great way to give some durability to the generic squadrons though. I think it needs a little testing but it could be an interesting house rule.

1 minute ago, TheBigLev said:

This is it I think. Generics are too expensive or aces too cheap. I was pondering on the effect of having a single brace or scatter token for all generics and quickly realized a scatter would be too powerful. A single brace could be a great way to give some durability to the generic squadrons though. I think it needs a little testing but it could be an interesting house rule.

Well, if you listen to Comms Noise and read what made me internet famous...

Interesting house rule. Logistical nightmare.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

Interesting house rule. Logistical nightmare.

Why?

I'm assuming that you're talking about my Squadon Upgrades. They left off my explanation of how to track them.

I’ll speak for Rebels only for a moment. When running minimal screen, you look for bang for your buck. Enough tokens/health/keywords to survive just long enough to inflict enough damage to make the enemy screen hesistate when hitting your ships. You use counter to sandpaper their screen down into the range that flak could start killing them fast. You might also take 1-2 Strategic to counter enemy objectives or amplify your own. To that end, Shara and Tycho are the only scatter/counter squads for Rebels. VCX the only Strategic option. Add more of either and you see minimal screen build variety. Make a Strategic Ywing ace and watch people run it.

For full screens thiugh, you see variety. My final Indianapolis regional game was my only 100+ vs 100+ squad battle. I saw:

-Awings: none

-Bwings: All three uniques (both had Ten Nunb), and a generic

-Xwings: Biggs, 2 generic

-Ywings: Dutch and Norra

-HWK: Jan and 2 generics

-1300: one generic

11 different squads chosen between 2 people was neat. We both had the same goals and chose different approaches

6 minutes ago, elbmc1969 said:

Why?

I'm assuming that you're talking about my Squadon Upgrades. They left off my explanation of how to track them.

I was referring to single brace for generics, Because that’s the rub in the rules basically. Differentiating meaningfully between generic squadrons who have and have not expended something. Without becoming a placed token nightmare, as people complain enough about just moving squadrons on their own.

I have no real issues with the squadron game outside of relay.

39 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Interesting house rule. Logistical nightmare.

Having a single brace should add almost no time to decision making or squadron play. The only thing I see an issue with is differentiating between squadrons for who has them spent or discarded. Which admittedly is a big enough issue.

Again, listen to my proposal right at the beginning of Comms Noise.

4 minutes ago, elbmc1969 said:

Again, listen to my proposal right at the beginning of Comms Noise.

I would if I could listen to podcasts. But I can’t.

Perhaps a restriction would be simpler as a house rule, max 1 ace per full 25 points of used squadron points or alternatively 1 ace per X generic squadrons.

27 minutes ago, Lord Tareq said:

Perhaps a restriction would be simpler as a house rule, max 1 ace per full 25 points of used squadron points or alternatively 1 ace per X generic squadrons.

Yeah. Coming from the SFB world (where you can't get a leader-variant ship without first getting two normal ships), this makes sense to me.

Aces lead squadrons of regular pilots. And they are the rare standout in a sea of mere mortal squadrons.

19 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Yeah. Coming from the SFB world (where you can't get a leader-variant ship without first getting two normal ships), this makes sense to me.

Aces lead squadrons of regular pilots. And they are the rare standout in a sea of mere mortal squadrons.

Worth noting that this is already the case in Armada (except the R&V/Strategics), and we just refer to the squadron by the ace's name as a shorthand. Tycho doesn't fly a whole squadron of A-wings by himself.

9 hours ago, elbmc1969 said:

Well, if you listen to Comms Noise and read what made me internet famous...

I'm going to be honest... I'm not going to go out of my way to listen to the beginning of a podcast just to engage. Care to share in the thread what it was?