I get that it is impossible to avoid all potential crazy stuff. The idea is to encourage friendly lists and ban some if the worst offenders. Yes, you will have the potential to creep in some broken stuff, but push the idea of friendly.
I think it is possible to harvest points on ships, but if you don't make the points too high it can't be too crazy. I mean, how many HWKs and Punishers can people add and still win games?
absolutely LajJanson, but i believe there is big difference between allowing something good (which i guess is the purpose of the format) and rewarding it with points
11 minutes ago, Husum said:Im thinking that no matter how you cut it, something will be the best choice. Perfect balance seems unachievable.
I would be very careful with the bonus point idea. I played in such a tournament many years ago (in 40k though) and some people where just harvesting points with their "fair" lists. Some combo will slip through as giving bonus points while still being good.
I've been saying this for years about the game as a whole
A handful of bonus points probably wouldn't unbalance things, while encouraging some underdog builds.
6 minutes ago, LagJanson said:Sadly, this is always the case no matter the rule set. Some people just have the will and ability to game the system.
Munchkins. **** them all.
I'm also considering keeping prize support low. I'm leaning towards giving more numerous small prizes than giving the winner a treasure trove. That could also help limit those that would abuse it for prizes. Make it more fun to bring jank than to go for the Gold.
2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:I'm also considering keeping prize support low. I'm leaning towards giving more numerous small prizes than giving the winner a treasure trove. That could also help limit those that would abuse it for prizes. Make it more fun to bring jank than to go for the Gold.
OMG!!! I WOULD HAVE TO PLAY FOR FUN ???!!!
5 minutes ago, heychadwick said:I'm also considering keeping prize support low. I'm leaning towards giving more numerous small prizes than giving the winner a treasure trove. That could also help limit those that would abuse it for prizes. Make it more fun to bring jank than to go for the Gold.
Make your prizes more of an Award show.
Best use of Naked HWK.
Most ships used in a single combo.
We actually ran a no uniques/no doubles tournament. It was a lot of fun but came down to the imperial aces (royal guard pilot and glaive squadron) as the winningest squads. Its super easy to run though for walk ups at Gencon.
Tougher to implement: ban the top 20 pilots of each faction and the top 20 upgrades on Meta-wing. We almost had one of these tournaments fire off and it was a lot of fun list building for it. Just adjusts the "meta" to things that are like the overpowered stuff, but definitely knocks out the crazy pilot abilities.
You could always run a tournament with that format I thought of a while back, where each player brings two lists, and both players have to play with the lists that one of them brought. It neatly solves a bunch of problems, and you don’t have the hassle of trying to make rules about what is considered ‘B-team’
2 hours ago, jonnyd said:We actually ran a no uniques/no doubles tournament. It was a lot of fun but came down to the imperial aces (royal guard pilot and glaive squadron) as the winningest squads. Its super easy to run though for walk ups at Gencon.
Tougher to implement: ban the top 20 pilots of each faction and the top 20 upgrades on Meta-wing. We almost had one of these tournaments fire off and it was a lot of fun list building for it. Just adjusts the "meta" to things that are like the overpowered stuff, but definitely knocks out the crazy pilot abilities.
Perhaps its easier to simply ban the top 60 pilots. If in theory rebels had top 40 to themselves it would be off the mark to ban top 20 from each faction.
Or, perhaps, steal the 77pts idea from the Coruscant Invitational by requiring a particular ship or pilot or upgrade card to be used for each faction?
I nominate Jek Porkins for the Rebels. Porkins can actually be reasonable, especially if the top pilots are banned too, but he costs about a third of a list.
Fel's Wrath for the Imperials. He is genuinely terrible, but can be a 3 red dice, not too expensive ship in an otherwise decent list.
And...do scum even have an equivalently bad pilot?!?
Legacy tournaments are fun. Waves 1-3 and upgrades in those waves only. Maybe a scum inclusion list if you want that faction to have a presence .
How about any given ship/combo is assigned "Jank Points" which means nothing with regard to affecting MOV, or similar.
Jank Points are assigned by the Judge off of a secret list (so people aren't tempted to game the system), for example: HWK=4 Jank Points, Misthunter=6 JP, Punisher=5 JP--assign it however you feel is fair. Whoever wins a particular match gets 10 extra Jank Points.
At the end of the tournament the winner & runners up get bonus Jank Points, but everyone can use their JP to spend or bid on different prizes.
Just spit balling here. Bidding for prizes auction style at the end of the game sounds kind of neat to me.
Edited by Force MajeureHi Chad,
I will be attending GenCon, and would love to participate in your 'Jank' tournament, so I've done some thinking, and here are my suggestions:
1. You can't do it by PS, because there are competitive pilots at every PS (Jess Pava PS 3, Captain Rex PS 4, Lowrrick PS 5, Ventress PS 6, Dash PS 7, etc).
2. You also have to worry about Generic Spam. BBBBZ could dominate.
3. I would keep my ban of upgrades really limited so that players are free to create lists
So here's my suggestion:
Rule 1: You may only have up to 1 Generic in your squad
Rule 2: You cannot pick from this list of banned Pilots (see below)
__________________________________________
Banned List
Wave 1: X-Wing: None
Y-Wing: None
TIE Fighter: Howlrunner
TIE Advanced: Vader
Wave 2: TIE Interceptor: Carnor Jax, Soontir Fel
Firespray: Scum Boba
A-Wing: Jake Farrell
YT-1300: Han Solo, Chewbacca
Wave 3: HWK: None
B-Wing: None
TIE Bomber: None
Lambda: None (probably outlaw Palp)
Wave 4: TIE Defender: Ryad, Vessery OR ban the x7 title
TIE Phantom: Whisper, Echo
E-Wing: Corran Horn
Z-95: Airen Cracken
Wave 5: Decimator: RAC
YT-2400: Dash
Wave 6: Starviper: None
Scyk: None
Aggressor: Allowed, but can only take 1
Wave 7: Hound's Tooth: Bossk
K-Wing: Miranda
Kirashjfahdfahf: None
Punisher: None
Wave 8: Ghost: Kanan
Attack Shuttle: None
T-70: Poe (both) and Jess Pava
TIE FO: Omega Leader
Jumpmaster: Dengar, Contracted Scout
TIE Adv. Prototype: Inquisitor
Mist Hunter: None
Wave 9: TIE SF: Quickdraw
Arc 170: Norra
Protectorate: Fenn Rau, Old Teroch
Shadowcaster: Ventress, Ketsu
Wave 10: Upsilon: None
Striker: None
Quadjumper: None
Rebel TIE: Captain Rex
U-Wing: None
Wave 11: Scurrg: Nym
Wookie Gunship: Lowrrick
TIE Aggressor: None
Wave 12: Kimogila: None
Gunboat: None
Sheathipede: Ezra, Fenn
Wave 13: Silencer: Kylo
B-17: Crimson Specialist
You can certainly add or subtract from this list, but I think having a handy list of bans, and simply releasing them, is the simplest solution.
Edited by SirCormac
2 hours ago, Force Majeure said:How about any given ship/combo is assigned "Jank Points" which means nothing with regard to affecting MOV...
Thought about this, but need to consider walk ups for GenCon. Ease of play is the goal. Make it simple and easy to run. That's why the heavy handedness as it's just simpler.
36 minutes ago, SirCormac said:Hi Chad,
I will be attending GenCon, and would love to participate in your 'Jank' tournament, so I've done some thinking, and here are my suggestions:
1. You can't do it by PS, because there are competitive pilots at every PS (Jess Pava PS 3, Captain Rex PS 4, Lowrrick PS 5, Ventress PS 6, Dash PS 7, etc).
2. You also have to worry about Generic Spam. BBBBZ could dominate.
3. I would keep my ban of upgrades really limited so that players are free to create lists
Hi. We are going to do a whole slew of Casual stuff at GenCon. We are doing Trench Run, HotAC, ISD mission, Mario Kart, TRON, and our Narrative Event.
As this is just one of many events, I don't want to over-engineer it. Want it to be easy for walk ups and running it. Learned from last year.
I think short ban list is simplest and easiest.
Not as worried about BBBBZ as I think newer stuff can mess with it. Still have Bombs and all that to screw with it.
Should I ban Palpatine????
1 minute ago, heychadwick said:Should I ban Palpatine????
I wouldn't. His Highness is still potent to be sure, but he's not the end of the world and I'd hardly say broken. I'd be more worried about Kylo crew than the Emperor.
On 1/23/2018 at 12:18 PM, Husum said:Im thinking that no matter how you cut it, something will be the best choice. Perfect balance seems unachievable.
I would be very careful with the bonus point idea. I played in such a tournament many years ago (in 40k though) and some people where just harvesting points with their "fair" lists. Some combo will slip through as giving bonus points while still being good.
I agree, but since this is only a 'one-off' affair, no one will have 'figured out the meta' yet, and so it should be a pretty wild west scenario. Look at Nymranda. It took about a month before it really took off, and that was fairly obvious. I think in an artificial meta, like this B-team tournament, no one will have 'figured' it out yet
15 minutes ago, heychadwick said:Hi. We are going to do a whole slew of Casual stuff at GenCon. We are doing Trench Run, HotAC, ISD mission, Mario Kart, TRON, and our Narrative Event.
As this is just one of many events, I don't want to over-engineer it. Want it to be easy for walk ups and running it. Learned from last year.
I think short ban list is simplest and easiest.
Not as worried about BBBBZ as I think newer stuff can mess with it. Still have Bombs and all that to screw with it.
I agree 100%. I think a simple ban list is the simplest and most effective. This would allow for walk-ups. I still think you need to worry about Generics. Here's my 'scary' generic list:
2 Nus with Concussion Missiles and LRS (because you've banned Harpoons)
2 Deltas with X7
That's a pretty scary generic list, IMO. That's why I think either limited squads to 1 Generic OR making each generic 'unique' (this would allow you to take as many generics as you wish, but couldn't spam the same generic.
14 minutes ago, SirCormac said:I agree 100%. I think a simple ban list is the simplest and most effective. This would allow for walk-ups. I still think you need to worry about Generics. Here's my 'scary' generic list:
2 Nus with Concussion Missiles and LRS (because you've banned Harpoons)
2 Deltas with X7
That's a pretty scary generic list, IMO. That's why I think either limited squads to 1 Generic OR making each generic 'unique' (this would allow you to take as many generics as you wish, but couldn't spam the same generic.
One possible (albeit cumbersomely phrased) rule:
"All pilots of a squad must have a different native PS."
1 hour ago, Yakostovian said:One possible (albeit cumbersomely phrased) rule:
"All pilots of a squad must have a different native PS."
What about Tie Fighters, though?
1 minute ago, heychadwick said:What about Tie Fighters, though?
I tried several ways to justify my answer, and even the jokey ones failed.
I never claimed it was a good rule to use.
5 minutes ago, heychadwick said:What about Tie Fighters, though?
I wouldn't want to limit list-building too much (someone might want to play Pure Sabaac and Backstabber, let them!) But I am worried about things like:
1. 8 Academy Ties
2. 6 Black Cracks
3. BBBBZ
4. 2 Deltas and 2 Nus
5. 3 Nus and some Ace
6. 3 Crack x7 Glaives
etc, etc.
I don't know the solution, but some of these squads are borderline competitive as it is, and it is only because of the big boys in the meta that they aren't (although triple Defender lists still appear from time to time). This is why I think the simplest is to allow generics, but only ever 1 of that type. That allows for open list-building, but not generic spam. I'm just worried that in a format with some jank, b-team pilots trying to have fun, that that fun will be curb-stomped by powerhouse generic lists. Believe me, I want to see the lesser flown pilots get a chance to shine. In fact, I just did a Christmas tournament for my group (about 12 guys) wherein I created a ton of 35 point pilots that were all 'Misfit' pilots (aka the B team) and let players pick these pilots blindly out of a bag until they had 3 ships (so we essentially played 105 pt games that day). This was my attempt at giving these guys a shot, so I really like your idea too. Gives a different way of getting at the same problem. I like it. I hope it is a big success!
21 hours ago, Gilarius said:Or, perhaps, steal the 77pts idea from the Coruscant Invitational by requiring a particular ship or pilot or upgrade card to be used for each faction?
I nominate Jek Porkins for the Rebels. Porkins can actually be reasonable, especially if the top pilots are banned too, but he costs about a third of a list.
Fel's Wrath for the Imperials. He is genuinely terrible, but can be a 3 red dice, not too expensive ship in an otherwise decent list.
And...do scum even have an equivalently bad pilot?!?
Oh yes. Not Fel's Wrath level of really bad, but then Jek is not that terrible either with the right load-out. People here tend to forget that Scum is not Large ship only, and that FFG in the beginning repeatedly missed the mark. There is a reason why there was almost only Brobots, and why the Viper got a 3pt discount and the Kihraxz a title which would be broken on many other ships.
That said, e.g.:
Graz (expensive, no EPT)(got a bit better with Vaksai now, but the other Kihraxzes are still so much better)
Kaa'to Leeachos (can be of use in a janky squad, but otherwise...)
Laetin A'shera (no EPT, to trigger that needs to be attacked at least twice, and not be hit by the first one).
I really would like to see people field the middling PS aces like above, Pirate Queen Drea, Lorrir, Youngster, Dutch, Hobbie etc.
@heychadwick " What about Tie Fighters, though? "
Don't you think that otherwise all just get flooded in TIE swarms variants?
On 1/23/2018 at 11:00 AM, heychadwick said:- pilots over PS 7
Just to reiterate my point, Jess Pava, Captain Rex, Lowrrick, and Ezra in the Sheathipede is a really, really strong list right now. They are all Ps 3-5. Also, weaker pilots (like Duchess and Talonbane) are Ps 8 and 9. You need to spell out which pilots you want to ban. I really think you need a list (doesn't need to be huge) that bans pilots across the board (PS-wise). BTW, Kanan-Lowrick is another very, very strong meta list. Both are PS 5.