Hi Guys,

I'm thinking of helping to set up a small and fun X-wing tournament at GenCon. My poscast reviews B-teams that are fun, but not necessarily top table material. Ever want to play a bunch of jank against non-OP lists? I want to try it.

So, what would be the best way to do it? I've thought about a Composition score where you get points for powerful ships/upgrades. Ban anything over a certain. Amount and first round pairs those of similar points. Bit of work, though, and hard to do with walk ups.

So, maybe just put hard limits on things? Only 1 TLT and 1 Harpoon Missile? Only 1 pilot over PS 7? One PTL?

Maybe just a ban list? Yeah, people tend to hate bans, but it might be the easiest way. Here are some ideas of what to ban:

- pilots over PS 7

- all TLTs

- all Harpoon Missiles

- all Push The Limit

- Advanced Cloaking Device

- Captured Tie

- Vet Instinct and Adaptability

- No Deadeye

- No Crackshot

Would that work? Anything else to ban? Other thoughts?

Yes, I get that many hard core tournament types would hate it, but the idea is to play with so-so lists and have fun. It's not to try to find the most broken list that works.

Ok, so I like the idea of a 'b-team' tournament... That said, actually going about and creating one is a bugger of a time to balance and control. You've knock out most of the big players, but Dash is still there and Asajj is still all in. Heck, Chewie returns to be a pain as well. Also, you ban harpoons but bombs are fine? I'd cap cards, rather than ban them, if at all possible.

May I make an alternate suggestion for you? How about run an "Original Trilogy" format? It encourages a lot of fun stuff, which is ultimately your goal here, right?

Original Trilogy would be fun, but still has Soontir Fel and Fat Han issues. Also, no Scum, really. I don't mind someone using things like Starvipers or Mist Hunters.

Would Dash and Chewie be bad with no Push The Limit? Maybe ban Engine Upgrade, as well?

Most effective Dash right now is Lone Wolf/Rey anyway—I think he’s still too good with those bans. Easiest way to make a b-team tourney, I think, would be to ban the highest PS pilot of any given ship.

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Original Trilogy would be fun, but still has Soontir Fel and Fat Han issues. Also, no Scum, really. I don't mind someone using things like Starvipers or Mist Hunters.

Would Dash and Chewie be bad with no Push The Limit? Maybe ban Engine Upgrade, as well?

Chewie doesn't like PTL as much as Dash would and Dash doesn't always take PTL either, VI is also a big choice for him... and if you're capping at 7, he takes Adaptability to get there. Chewie is about tanking damage forever... Asajj is the best at tanking damage and she doesn't use any of the cards you've mentioned so far. Just using those examples anyway.

Just like scenario building, balance is key. If you kick somebody off the top, the next level down may become unstoppable. By all means, this is not me saying 'thou must run standard 100 points' because, yeah, I like variety. I'm just wary of unseen repercussions.

5 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

Easiest way to make a b-team tourney, I think, would be to ban the highest PS pilot of any given ship.

This... may actually work!

Trying to think of exceptions to the rule:

1. Nu Gunboats might be terrifying
2. TIE Swarms, but y'know... let'em come. People feared this in OT format, and they are good, but not a lock for victory
3. Lose Wedge on the T-65, but Janson and Luke are still present - still T-65s. I love seeing them
4. Lose one Poe, for another???
5. Chewie and Asajj still doing their thing...
6. Edit: Forgot Rey!!!

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

This... may actually work!

Trying to think of exceptions to the rule:

1. Nu Gunboats might be terrifying
2. TIE Swarms, but y'know... let'em come. People feared this in OT format, and they are good, but not a lock for victory
3. Lose Wedge on the T-65, but Janson and Luke are still present - still T-65s. I love seeing them
4. Lose one Poe, for another???
5. Chewie and Asajj still doing their thing...

Like like @Ailowynn 's idea a lot, and I would actually be more aggressive, and dump PS 7-9. No uber aces. Down to the Unsung Heroes (maybe a better title than B-Team?) and really gives a chance for generics to be a thing.

Selectively limit and ban the top meta cards (TLT, Bomblet, et. al.) because the whole point here is to play with all those cards in your binder you haven't looked at in years.

31 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

Most effective Dash right now is Lone Wolf/Rey anyway—I think he’s still too good with those bans. Easiest way to make a b-team tourney, I think, would be to ban the highest PS pilot of any given ship.

I think this is a good idea! It might work. Still ban other things.

Also on ban list:

- Adaptability and VI

- Advanced Cloaking Device

- Engine Upgrade?

- Crackshot?

I don't think Chewie or Asajj would be that terrifying. I think we would see 4-6 ships in each list with this ban. That would make it easier to defeat Chewie and Asajj.

Howlrunner would be banned. Probably knock both Poes.

How about a smaller point cap? say, 80, 75, or 55 points? That might get some people thinking differently, rather than a bunch of auto-includes on a Fat-Han and such.

EDIT: You could alternatively try a "no unique pilots, and no unique upgrades" ban instead. That takes out all PS7 and above, and some, but not all, of the abused upgrades.

I like some uniques, especially mid-PS ones.

I like 100 pts, but different stuff.

What about bonus points for taking specific ships? Bonus MOV for taking HWKs, Misthunters, etc.?

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Also on ban list:

- Adaptability and CO

Whoah dude, what you got against Colorado?

1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

What about bonus points for taking specific ships? Bonus MOV for taking HWKs, Misthunters, etc.?

That's a fun way to do it. There's a rumoured Jek Porkins Invitational coming up around here I'm trying to get in on. You can fly Rebel, Imperial or Scum, but no matter what you have to fly Jek Porkins with a specific prebuilt loadout.

2 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

What about bonus points for taking specific ships? Bonus MOV for taking HWKs, Misthunters, etc.?

This gets tricky fast. For one thing, you’re basically doing a full on recost of the game, which is a big bite to take. But also MoV bonuses don’t help you win; they only help you if you’re kinda sometimes winning. Better to just fly the good ahips

Sorry @Ailowynn - Liking that post wasn't what I meant to do. Again, a valid point so easily overlooked.

When our FLGS did an original trilogy tournament, they also banned upgrades which came with expansions which didn't have those specific original trilogy ships (plus a select number of fix cards: Munitions Failsafe, Guidance Chips, and . So Soontir is fine, but no Autothrusters. Fat Han might still be a bit overtuned, as you could run Gunner or Luke, C-3PO, VI, Engines, title.

There's also a "no doubles, no uniques" that I've heard about, but never really built for. That seems like it'd encourage the B-Team elements. Also, the rules are really simple. You can't run two of anything, and you can't run anything unique. Certainly a lot simpler than a select list of things limited to one option.

10 minutes ago, Ailowynn said:

This gets tricky fast. For one thing, you’re basically doing a full on recost of the game, which is a big bite to take. But also MoV bonuses don’t help you win; they only help you if you’re kinda sometimes winning. Better to just fly the good ahips

Yes, but what about someone who takes HWKs and WINS! They get bonus points.

I think you are going to be forced into some subjective territory which is probably OK if your prize structure is a bit "jank" as well. Make sure the tournament structure encourages a more playful approach.

1. Have players submit lists in advance.
2. Lists are voted on (anonymously) on their level of Jank scaled 1-10. (maybe use an impartial collection of "experts")
3. Players MOV for the day is multiplied by their average jank score and highest total wins,

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Yes, but what about someone who takes HWKs and WINS! They get bonus points.

Well, that would be easy to implement. If your list contains chassis P, Q, or R, add 10 points to your winning MOV. No bonus for shooting it down; cahone points for putting it in.

8 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I think you are going to be forced into some subjective territory which is probably OK if your prize structure is a bit "jank" as well. Make sure the tournament structure encourages a more playful approach.

1. Have players submit lists in advance.
2. Lists are voted on (anonymously) on their level of Jank scaled 1-10. (maybe use an impartial collection of "experts")
3. Players MOV for the day is multiplied by their average jank score and highest total wins,

I like this, but hard to implement with walk ups at GenCon.

How about a selective ban list based on the highest placing of each ship type on metawing? Selective because some should most likely be left in, like deathrain (which i guess is the highest ranking punisher), while some could have 2 pilots banned (for example Han and rey). It would remove the most popular choices and make players reinvent squads.

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, that would be easy to implement. If your list contains chassis P, Q, or R, add 10 points to your winning MOV. No bonus for shooting it down; cahone points for putting it in.

I think adding in bonus MOV is good for people who take specific ships. Something like 100 MOV to final score. This helps even if you lose. More important for smaller rounds, like just 3 rounds.

2 minutes ago, Husum said:

How about a selective ban list based on the highest placing of each ship type on metawing? Selective because some should most likely be left in, like deathrain (which i guess is the highest ranking punisher), while some could have 2 pilots banned (for example Han and rey). It would remove the most popular choices and make players reinvent squads.

I like this more than just ban all ships as I like some options, such as Porkins, Deathrain, and Xizor. I just worry that a few high PS might unbalance it. Still....could work.

Im thinking that no matter how you cut it, something will be the best choice. Perfect balance seems unachievable.

I would be very careful with the bonus point idea. I played in such a tournament many years ago (in 40k though) and some people where just harvesting points with their "fair" lists. Some combo will slip through as giving bonus points while still being good.

4 minutes ago, Husum said:

Some combo will slip through as giving bonus points while still being good.

Sadly, this is always the case no matter the rule set. Some people just have the will and ability to game the system.

12 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I like this, but hard to implement with walk ups at GenCon.

I would suggest you nominate a "Jankmaster General" that assigns each list a jank score which multiplies the MOV. And don't announce Jank scores until the end. Also modify the prize structure so that getting 1st place isn't seen as the only goal.