If Harpoons were Torpedo or Missile slot, would more people accept it?

I know everyone wanted a nerf, but really when you have rey and other ships dealing 5 dice damage each turn basic or slightly moded, I don't think harpoon is so bad. It makes Arc's important again and helps generic ships become competitive.

So I ask should Harpoons have been Torpedo or Missile Slot, would that be a good fix. X-wings and other ships with Torps would become good again.

Thanks,

36 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

If Harpoons were Torpedo or Missile slot, would more people accept it?

I know everyone wanted a nerf, but really when you have rey and other ships dealing 5 dice damage each turn basic or slightly moded, I don't think harpoon is so bad. It makes Arc's important again and helps generic ships become competitive.

So I ask should Harpoons have been Torpedo or Missile Slot, would that be a good fix. X-wings and other ships with Torps would become good again.

Thanks,

I'm not massively happy with them existing n either, but I'd admit that it'd be nice to have a "don't spend the lock" torpedo - missiles have been getting the love over torpedoes recently (harpoons & cruise missiles) whilst the torpedo's period of dominance was far more to do with the chassis (jumpmaster) than the ordnance (I think the newest was Plasma torpedoes?)

Part of the problem is that the really brutal ordance ships (The Scurrg, K-Wing, and Alpha Star Wing) all have both slots, so shifting from missile to torpedo punishes, say, Z-95s, A-wings and Khiraxz, but doesn't hit the really nasty harpooners out there.

X-wings having torpedoes rather than missiles is just one of their problems - they also really, really want integrated astromech - which means they're loath to take guidance chips - which massively impacts the effectiveness of any torpedo you equip them with.

(although you can surprise people with Seismics).

The problem with Harpoons isn't that its a missile. The problem with Harpoons is that its over powered and under priced. Compare a Harpoon with Assault Missile (5pt + spent target lock+splash). Harpoons are 4pt + keep TL + extra DMG to defender + splash. Harpoons are simply the best missile/torp in the game right now. The only way to fix it is to nerf Harpoons.

Hopefully X-Wing 2.0 will differentiate the two ordnance types in a meaningful way.

That said, harpoon missiles are stupid.

Harpoons should have never existed.

(But I'm very happy to continue abusing them)

All the hate for harpoons seems short sighted to me*. I mean, don't get me wrong, they're blatant power and complexity creep, but the thing is? We kind of need them. Crazy defenses, bombs, turrets, and enormous arcs had all but crowded ships with the traditional ~80 degree arc out of the game. Harpoons were a shot of adrenaline to the heart of a dieing breed of x-wing ship.

Now, like I said, harpoons are crazy. But so is just about everything at this point, sadly.

*Why the hate compared to the other stuff? If I'd have to speculate, it's because harpoons are far less subtle in how they play against the classic ships.

3 minutes ago, Squark said:

All the hate for harpoons seems short sighted to me*. I mean, don't get me wrong, they're blatant power and complexity creep, but the thing is? We kind of need them. Crazy defenses, bombs, turrets, and enormous arcs had all but crowded ships with the traditional ~80 degree arc out of the game. Harpoons were a shot of adrenaline to the heart of a dieing breed of x-wing ship.

Now, like I said, harpoons are crazy. But so is just about everything at this point, sadly.

*Why the hate compared to the other stuff? If I'd have to speculate, it's because harpoons are far less subtle in how they play against the classic ships.

Here's your hate for all the other overpowered shtt in the game recently:

Wookkiess was designed poorly for balance.

Scurgg is DUMB

TS Genius is DUMB

Shadowcaster is overpowered and undercoated and has too easy greens for dumb around the map play.

Jumpmasters were stupid overpowered.

Dengar shoulda never been PS9 +VI.

Miranda is DUMB

the Ghost is DUMB and a pita.

PS9 Fenn Rau with coordinate steals the show from the Upsilon.

TLT is only ok cuz everything else is so DUMB.

4 minutes ago, Squark said:

All the hate for harpoons seems short sighted to me*. I mean, don't get me wrong, they're blatant power and complexity creep, but the thing is? We kind of need them. Crazy defenses, bombs, turrets, and enormous arcs had all but crowded ships with the traditional ~80 degree arc out of the game. Harpoons were a shot of adrenaline to the heart of a dieing breed of x-wing ship.

Now, like I said, harpoons are crazy. But so is just about everything at this point, sadly.

*Why the hate compared to the other stuff? If I'd have to speculate, it's because harpoons are far less subtle in how they play against the classic ships.

And yet the ships getting the most use out of harpoons also have TLT.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

the Ghost Kanan is DUMB and a pita.

FTFY. Kanan was great with Biggs, now with Low, Fenn, and Rex, and it's just plain stupid how much damage he can ignore. Chopper is the "I don't know what do do with these 2 points so I'll upgrade my generic" pilot, and Hera is my next project.

The explodium slot.

3 hours ago, Rexler Brath said:

The problem with Harpoons isn't that its a missile. The problem with Harpoons is that its over powered and under priced. Compare a Harpoon with Assault Missile (5pt + spent target lock+splash). Harpoons are 4pt + keep TL + extra DMG to defender + splash. Harpoons are simply the best missile/torp in the game right now. The only way to fix it is to nerf Harpoons.

I disagree, the BEST way to fix it is to not overly complicate things with more rules and simply change the cost!

19 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

I disagree, the BEST way to fix it is to not overly complicate things with more rules and simply change the cost!

What do you disagree with? It seems that you agree that it needs to be nerfed and your option for nerfing it is to increase the cost. I made no mention of how it should be nerfed; just that it needs to be nerfed.

1 hour ago, Npmartian said:

FTFY. Kanan was great with Biggs, now with Low, Fenn, and Rex, and it's just plain stupid how much damage he can ignore. Chopper is the "I don't know what do do with these 2 points so I'll upgrade my generic" pilot, and Hera is my next project.

I had a tier1 build with Chopper pilot. Hes very good.

And the generic is good for stupid firepower, on a stupidly mobile base. Compare this to the Upsilon. WDFF??

Nope. not FTFY. Ghost are a PITA

3 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

And yet the ships getting the most use out of harpoons also have TLT.

What do you mean by, "Most use?" Sure, Nym and Miranda use Harpoons. They're probably they most prolific carriers, but then, they're the most prolific ships in the game at the moment; And they'd still be in that category without harpoons. But what about the Gunboat or Vader? Sure, they're not as common. But without harpoon, would they even be represented at all? I'm only speculating, but I honestly don't think so.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

I had a tier1 build with Chopper pilot. Hes very good.

And the generic is good for stupid firepower, on a stupidly mobile base. Compare this to the Upsilon. WDFF??

Nope. not FTFY. Ghost are a PITA

The Upsilon comparison is a bit unfair. FFG generally tries to be conservative with new mechanics (Not always successfully, mind you), and the Upsilon was the testbed for coordinate. The seathipede is a lot more aggressively costed, but they took what they learned from the Upsilon and applied it to the Phantom II. Not unlike what happened with SLAM.

16 minutes ago, Squark said:

The Upsilon comparison is a bit unfair. FFG generally tries to be conservative with new mechanics (Not always successfully, mind you), and the Upsilon was the testbed for coordinate. The seathipede is a lot more aggressively costed, but they took what they learned from the Upsilon and applied it to the Phantom II. Not unlike what happened with SLAM.

Let what you said sink in a for a minute. I know you think this is reasonable. Let me show you another side of the coin: The Upsilon has a role in TWO new movies. It allowed Imperials to have a mechanic they desperately needed (compared to Rebels who have a plethora of action synergy): the ability to give around actions to ships that needed them. Its also a wholly needed niche to add extra support options for Imperial play, especially after losing Lambda + Palpatine.

So, what you said, is you're talking a huge iconic ship from two canonical movies, and using that as a dummy for WHAT now? Yet another Rebel crew carrier? A TV show canon ship?

Maybe you don't play Imperials, maybe you haven't actually played 5 games (I've played around 20-25) of the Upsilon to find out how terribly inefficient its coordinate action, or how difficult it is to pull off in moments you aren't already winning. I advise you to go try it now. This is an invitation to walk in my shoes.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Let what you said sink in a for a minute. I know you think this is reasonable. Let me show you another side of the coin: The Upsilon has a role in TWO new movies. It allowed Imperials to have a mechanic they desperately needed (compared to Rebels who have a plethora of action synergy): the ability to give around actions to ships that needed them. Its also a wholly needed niche to add extra support options for Imperial play, especially after losing Lambda + Palpatine.

So, what you said, is you're talking a huge iconic ship from two canonical movies, and using that as a dummy for WHAT now? Yet another Rebel crew carrier? A TV show canon ship?

Maybe you don't play Imperials, maybe you haven't actually played 5 games (I've played around 20-25) of the Upsilon to find out how terribly inefficient its coordinate action, or how difficult it is to pull off in moments you aren't already winning. I advise you to go try it now. This is an invitation to walk in my shoes.

First off, a couple of points to explain my perspective;

1) Rebels do have a lot of action synergy mechanics. Prior to Ashoka (released alongside the Upsilon), however, almost all of them were terrible Rube Goldberg contraptions that could barely manage to achieve the efficiency of a list of ships that were simply good... and then one of them inevitably died and the whole thing fell apart. So bringing them up feels like a bit of a strawman.

2)I can't say I feel Palpatine was lost. I stand by previous statements I've made that he is still an incredibly powerful card (As backed up by Mathwing). His decline had little to do with the nerf and much to do with bombs exploding in popularity and then getting buff after buff. Also, considering the timeline, the Upsilon was likely being prepared for the printer when needing Palpatine first started to be seriously considered, so I think if anything FFG was more concerned about giving him an even better ride than replacing him.

3) This is pretty obvious, but... FFG probably didn't have any information suggesting the Upsilon would be in TLJ, so all they had was a brief scene in the opening of the film.

4) Truthfully I haven't played a ton of games with the upsilon. Between my own experiences and watching others, I freely admit it struggles to perform at the level of more competitive ships. However, some of those other players were very strong competitive players, who pointed out (prior to the Phantom II's release) that the only thing holding coordinate back was the Upsilon's weak chassis.

As for your response itself, I never said the Upsilon was a dummy for the Seathipede specifically. But it was introducing a new mechanic with a lot of potential. It's a shame FFG's caution in introducing coordinate to the base game proved to be excessive. But frankly, given what the k-wing, the jumpmaster, the Wookiee gunship, etc. have turned out to be, I think a lot of us wish FFG was a bit more cautious.

I suppose one alternative could have been to make the Upsilon significantly cheaper but shelve coordinate for a later, but then it would have been a rather boring release, honestly

13 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

If Harpoons were Torpedo or Missile slot, would more people accept it?

I know everyone wanted a nerf, but really when you have rey and other ships dealing 5 dice damage each turn basic or slightly moded, I don't think harpoon is so bad. It makes Arc's important again and helps generic ships become competitive.

So I ask should Harpoons have been Torpedo or Missile Slot, would that be a good fix. X-wings and other ships with Torps would become good again.

Thanks,

The honest and short answer is No. Yes the game is called X-Wing, and yes they need freshening up. However, not everything needs to be about them in the game. If anything harpoons are a further attempt to push out the other unique/popular ship/build, the swarm.

As to other points made, Soark, the power creep is an issue, but the bigger issue is it’s severely shorted average game play time. Additionally, the sheer number of ships that can make use of them effectively and efficiently makes them a layer that is more discouraging for players to play against then encouraging them to keep going. That is the general concerns I hear about them anyways.

As far as some other things, most of the Meta is played as a whole less than we tend to admit here. At least outside of circles that are preparing for some type of Tournament where high value prizes are offered.

4 minutes ago, Squark said:

First off, a couple of points to explain my perspective;

I know you want to defend your point, but when someone asks you to step into their shoes, usually a request to listen. Instead of further entrenching yourself in your position.

5 minutes ago, Squark said:

1) Rebels do have a lot of action synergy mechanics. Prior to Ashoka (released alongside the Upsilon), however, almost all of them were terrible Rube Goldberg contraptions that could barely manage to achieve the efficiency of a list of ships that were simply good... and then one of them inevitably died and the whole thing fell apart. So bringing them up feels like a bit of a strawman.

This is blatantly untrue. since you believe, here is the counter evidence: Ways to give other ships more action economy or direct increase or decrease of damage: Airen Cracken, Dutch Vander, Garvin, Ahsoka, Lando, Shara Bey, Jan Ors crew, Jan Ors pilot, Jyn Erso, Kanan crew, Kanan pilot, Kyle Katarn pilot, Esege Tugetu, ALL 4 Sheathipedes, Rex.

Airen is used often as a missile carrier + action helper NOW (see Miranda). Dutch was used quite often in earlier waves. Shara Bey is extremely solid. Jan Ors pilot is very powerful, was used in Dash Jan lists at Tier 1 in Wave 5. Kanan was a T1 terror in Wave8, and is RIGHT NOW with Fenn. Esege is used in Epic. BS. Your rube gold dismissal as blatantly untrue.

Boosting your own action economy or efficiency: Rey, Sabine, c3P0, Kyle Katarn, Lando, Maul.

Go ahead, count up the ways Imperials can increase action economy on other ships.

Your strawman dismissal is a statement without support.

14 minutes ago, Squark said:

Truthfully I haven't played a ton of games with the upsilon.

You should go try it for 5 games.

You know, its really not fun to have to say these things.

While Upsilon can easily feel left behind compared to the VCX (despite the only real difference in the dial being 5k vs 0 stall), I think on paper it seems fair compared to the Lambda. For 9 points and a Canon slot, you get an extra die of Primary weapon, an extra hull, an extra shield, a vastly better dial (white hard turns?), coordinate, and two Tech slots.

However, a Palp Shuttle doesn't really need 4 attack, and 2 HP doesn't go wicked far. Meanwhile, there are now Gunboats (HLC and Missile) for all your 4-red-dice, no-K-turn needs.

//

Playing around with builds while typing... This kinda looks like fun. Not necessarily good, but I might try it some casual night...

Starkiller Base Pilot (44) Upsilon-class Shuttle (30), Collision Detector (0), Emperor Palpatine (8), Kylo Ren's Shuttle (2), Engine Upgrade (4)

Nu Squadron Pilot (28) x 2 Alpha-class Star Wing (18), XG-1 Assault Configuration (1), Long Range Scanners (0), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Linked Battery (2)

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

While Upsilon can easily feel left behind compared to the VCX (despite the only real difference in the dial being 5k vs 0 stall), I think on paper it seems fair compared to the Lambda. For 9 points and a Canon slot, you get an extra die of Primary weapon, an extra hull, an extra shield, a vastly better dial (white hard turns?), coordinate, and two tech slots.

However, a Palp Shuttle doesn't really need 4 attack, and 2 HP doesn't go wicked far. Meanwhile, there are now Gunboats (HLC and Missile) for all your 4-red-dice, no-K-turn needs.

You forgot the VXC gets a Turret, a Torpedo slot, a front and rear arc, which it can launch said Torp from, it can make two attacks per turn, and can now coordinate with the phantom II, freely while also taking its own action.

What really should happen is other Ordinance should be re-balanced to make attractive alternatives to Harpoons. This, along with a slight nerf to harpoons, would bring some balance so you wouldn't see Harpoons and nothing else.

Make fewer stuff spend target locks, and give those that do some inherent rerolls. And make other ordinance cheaper.

If say, concussion missiles were the following,

Concussion Missiles: 3 points. Attack 4. Range 2-3. Attack Target Lock. Discard this card and spend your target lock to perform this attack. After rolling, you may change one blank result to a Hit result. You may reroll up to 2 of your dice results.

and Harpoon Missiles were the following.

Harpoon Missiles: 4 points. Attack 4. Range 2-3. Attack Target Lock. Discard this card to perform this attack. You may change one Focus result to a Crit result. You may cancel 1 Crit result to assign the defender the Harpooned condition.

This would be a serious decision between the two. The Concussion would have more raw damage potential, but the Harpoons would be more tactical.

4 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

What really should happen is other Ordinance should be re-balanced to make attractive alternatives to Harpoons.

What really should happen is Harpoons should have never been printed, Wookkiess mechanics with Biggs should have been reconsidered, and we got along just fine with spamming 4 hit Concussion Missiles form our glorious gunboats.

17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

While Upsilon can easily feel left behind compared to the VCX (despite the only real difference in the dial being 5k vs 0 stall),

Umm...

Big UMM. (Wdf lol)

I disagree that Harpoons are undercosted. They are a point less than Assault missiles, and accordingly, the loose the spend TL restriction, and the immediate splash damage. Seems fair.

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