Alright folks, I think it's time we finally sat down and addressed the need for an alternate system of magic that doesn't depend on strain. The default casting system if great, Strain is a good resource that also has a nice risk to it. It functions properly and makes casting a spell interesting every time. However, I feel that there needs to be a different option for the purposes of differentiating different power types in a setting, Psionics, Ki, and the like.

So, let's spitball a few ideas to see what we can cook up. I like the idea of a Spell Points system, similar to that found in the 5e DMG, except that the points are extrapolated from the relevant Attribute and Casting stats, and expandable via a ranked talent system. Spells would cost points to cast, and their inherent cost would differ based on the modifiers, instead of raising the difficulty of the cast. However, instead of casting against normal difficulty ratings based on range bands and such, they instead roll against a difficulty rating based on their target's attributes.(So targeting a player with 2 AGI with the attack spell is always a 2 difficulty roll, but the cost will go up based on range and effect of the spell, however using the same spell on someone with 4 AGI will always be a 4 difficulty!) The "Spending Advantage and Threat on spellcasting" table is otherwise unchanged, a Threats and despairs will still cost strain and wounds as normal.

Overall, this would make for a casting system where the goal is to target an enemy where he's weakest, and directly exploit his dump stats, while conserving a limited resource that will replenish at a slower rate than recovering strain would. I don't have the numbers set out, and perhaps the spell points should be made seperate from any attribute or stat, and just go by a base value followed by a ranked talent expansion. Thoughts?

Interesting idea, I do like the idea of spells being separated from Strain for some settings, and your idea of a points system seems cool. I think the Opposed Check on every Spell cast though will really limit what casters are willing to do, the Attack Spell will be really limited in combat compared to other times which seems counterintuitive.

Another possibility is that each successful spell cast each day upgrades (or increases, idk which) the difficulty to cast future spells. If you have successfully cast three spells today then the next attempt is upgraded three times. You could have talents that mitigate some of this, each rank allows an additional Spell before you start upgrading.

So if it costs me 4 Difficulty to hit an Agility 4 why wouldn't I just throw a rock, or use a bow with the set Difficulty for a ranged attack? Sounds like it would be a lot easier, so likely archers and other missileers will always be vastly better than a caster. They can just close to Short and it will always be 1 purple, as opposed to a caster that will rarely ever have 1 purple. Plus, how are you going to know which stat to attack? Trial and error? Several rocks or arrows before I figure that out would probably work better.

As a third and very simple option you could have a Ranked Talent for each casting skill. Each rank of the talent allows a spell to be cast in an encounter, three ranks? You can cast three spells each encounter. The difficulty of the check is RAW.

A fourth option could be similar to the out of Ammo rule for weapons with ammunition. On a Despair you suffer “Burn Out” and can no longer cast until getting a nights rest/meditation/prayer etc. if you need it more difficult then two or three Threat could be the threshold

@2P51 I was actually thinking of an Observation Maneuver that would give players a roll at a varying difficulty to tell what a particular attribute was, but the player has to pick the attribute, and it may be vague, such as "under or at 3 AGI" depending on the roll.

So the issue here is that we have to make this resource system equivalent to the Strain system for the purpose of Game Balance, at least as far as slotting it in with the Melee and ranged attackers.

Of course, if we just swapped numbers around so there's absolutely no benefit over standard casting then it's basically pointless. Instead, what we want is a clear advantage over strain, as well as an equivalent weakness. Like so:

Strain Casting

+ can restore resources via in-castimg rolls

+/- Uses fixed difficulty scale with modular difficulty for modifiers.

-Spending the resource can incapacitate you.

Spell Points

+ spells don't drain a resource based on your life

+/- Modifications on Spells don't upgrade difficulty, but cost more resources.

-resources take longer to replenish than strain casting does, and can't be replenished via in-cast rolls.

-Spells difficulty is varied based on enemy to enemy, and is in general more difficult than strain casting.

Now, you could argue that the necessity of conserving the resource is a big enough limitation compared to the normal strain casting, but in practice, since we have to allow casters to feel like casters and give them enough resources to be able to cast a good portion of their playtime, at least after a certain level of XP is gained, this is largely made moot, and D&D tells us that it sets us up for the Martial/Caster imbalance.

So we can change the disadvantage around, but it needs to be limiting enough that, ideally, it actually makes for a juicy choice between Strain casting and Spell Points, independent of any abilities attached to it.

I would agree with you there. I’m wondering if you’re trying to design some new systems to work along side the current system in the same game? Or are these ideas to replace the current system for certain settings?

Making a roll to determine what spell to cast, then rolling to cast a spell sounds like too much dice rolling for my tastes, particularly when you could have different opponents and keep having to make all those checks. What happens when they find out a stat is higher than they want to try and attack, they keep rolling until they find a stat they do like? Two checks and they can't move.

4 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Making a roll to determine what spell to cast, then rolling to cast a spell sounds like too much dice rolling for my tastes, particularly when you could have different opponents and keep having to make all those checks. What happens when they find out a stat is higher than they want to try and attack, they keep rolling until they find a stat they do like? Two checks and they can't move.

And this is the problem with an Opposed Difficulty. Normal combat checks are not opposed, doing so with magic just nerfs it.

I @Richardbuxton Alongside. You can cook up a replacement no problem, but you run the risk of changing caster balance entirely, but if you make something that works alongside vanilla casting, then you have both an extra option and a replacement.

I don't have a specific setting in mind, it's more that I want to create another building block in the toolkit because of what it'll do for the community. From there it's easy to slot it into Pathfinder or D&D settings to replicate the feel of magic in those settings, or, since it's a point system, you could use it for Psionics, or you could even link it to a physical attribute like Strength or Vigor for Melee abilities, similar to the 5e Battle Master, or the Monk's Ki abilities.

Ok I understand. I disagree with your method of setting the difficulty, it makes combat spell casting a very undesirable thing. Out of combat its probably fine though.

@Richardbuxton I am not actually a fan of it either. I'm open to suggestions. Your increased difficulty of casting a spell is an interesting take, and you could have ranked talents that increase the number of times you can cast a spell at a set difficulty before it upgrades itself from RAW.

The Burn Out idea also seems good. 3 disadvantage OR a despair results in a burn out, or the player can choose to spend those Narratively or as Wounds/Strain as normal. Gives them a nice choice.

Meanwhile, I'll be working out exactly how Spell Points should scale. Probably just start with Strain and increase it by a percentage equal to how often you're likely to roll Advantage based on the AnyDice probabilities, so it's at least on par with Strain.

Ok, so based on the odds of rolling at least 2 Advantage to recover 2 strain given an average difficulty spell casting roll, and averaging the combined possible odds of casting a spell with the various possible skill combination ratings, characters will recover about 36% of their strain. Of course, this is just given the Average difficulty roll using every possible Ability and Proficiency combination, as I didn't want to go through and have to average it for every possible combination of Difficulty, Proficiency, and Ability dice, but it'll do for our numbers. So a reasonable estimate for how much strain you can actually spend spellcasting would be around 15 + Willpower, which gives us a nice number to work with.

Spell points are equal to 15 + your relevant spell casting attribute. If your character utilizes multiple types of casting, they will use the largest attribute, and use the same pool for all spells they cast. Spells always cost 2 Points to cast, unless stated otherwise, and additional modifiers cost 1 point extra for each difficulty that would have been added to the check. Spell points only recover after a full-night's rest.

Advantage, Triumph, Disadvantage, and Despair can all be spent as with normal spellcasting, with the exception that when spending disadvantage the caster may choose to lose 2 spell points in place of 2 strain or 1 wound, and when overexerting on a despair, the spellcaster loses the ability to cast spells until they finish a full night's rest, part of which will require them to spend time Meditating, Attuning with nature, or consulting with their deity/guardian spirit.

Mana Reserve

Tier: 1

Activation: Passive

Ranked: Yes

Each rank of Mana Reserve increases your character’s total Spell Points Equal to the Talent Tier at which you purchase this, 1 point for Tier 1, 5 points for Tier 5.

(I decided that instead of being just 1 according to grit, the limited recovery should allow for a greater reserve of spells, which is why Mana Reserve increases Spell points by the Tier amount, this lends to a total maximum spell points of 30, or 31 if you manage to get 6 in an attribute.)

Oh I like these, not as replacements, but as additional alternatives. Just some ideas:

For comparison in a traditional class based game D&D-like schema, I could definitely see a wizard casting opposed, but a warlock using spell points, and a sorcerer using RAW.

A wizard/alchemist type, is a learned caster and they aren't really using their own power to cast spells, they are simply tapping into the secret language of the universe to restructure power that's already around them to cast spells, that's why they have to go through all the rigamarole of learning formulas and rituals to cast spells. This could also apply to bard, priest/witch doctor, or druid types who use nature's ambient energy to cast spells in similar ways.

But a warlock, or cleric who use an external power source might be granted a number of spell points they are able to cast magic with. A warlock might be granted spell points by a powerful entity like a demon lord, or siphoning from an unknowable elder god, and a cleric's patron deity may grant them their power.

And finally a sorcerer, shaman, or psion could use RAW to show how they are using magic with their own internal power and life force.

It would take some more work to balance these against each other, if you care about such things in your personal campaign. Balance might even be more narrative in nature. Using the RAW approach might require specific races/species that grant the use of magic through internal power:

* If you don't start the game as a Kalashtar or a Tiefling, you wouldn't be able to use psionics or cast magic spells using Strain.

* A learned caster is something just about anyone can do just by investing skill points into it maybe narratively having access to such material like a wizard's grimoire, or a library with magic information, or even a master that teaches you, but it's the weakest of the bunch in that everything is an opposed roll, so while it's the easiest to acquire, it's also the easiest to defend against.

* The middle road of spell points option may narratively require making a 'deal with the devil' as it were, whether that devil is an actual devil, or a deity and thus directly affected by the god's religious dogma, or a powerful patron entity that would grant you such spell points for the price of being their agent or slave.

How about using a Spell Matrice system?

Its an idea from the Earthdawn setting where casters use Spell Matrices to set spells into that are safe to cast from, but each Spell Matrice can only hold 1 spell. The spells in the Matrice don't cost Strain to cast. But, if a caster wanted to still cast magic Raw... It costs Strain as normal and is more dangerous.

In a way the Spell Matrice is a spell preparation system. A person formulates the Spell they want to cast and does a small ritual that puts it in the Matrix. But now its set, and when the person wants to use it later it has to be cast at the parameters in which it was set. So they can't be changed.

Using a Matrix like this makes it a lot easier to release the spell later, and has no Strain cost. Whether the ease of difficulty represents lowering the Difficulty die down to 1 or gives the spellcaster Boost dice when the time comes to release the spell... That I don't know.

Spell Matrices could easily be a Talent.

On 1/23/2018 at 2:14 PM, Stacie_GmrGrl said:

How about using a Spell Matrice system?

Its an idea from the Earthdawn setting where casters use Spell Matrices to set spells into that are safe to cast from, but each Spell Matrice can only hold 1 spell. The spells in the Matrice don't cost Strain to cast. But, if a caster wanted to still cast magic Raw... It costs Strain as normal and is more dangerous.

In a way the Spell Matrice is a spell preparation system. A person formulates the Spell they want to cast and does a small ritual that puts it in the Matrix. But now its set, and when the person wants to use it later it has to be cast at the parameters in which it was set. So they can't be changed.

Using a Matrix like this makes it a lot easier to release the spell later, and has no Strain cost. Whether the ease of difficulty represents lowering the Difficulty die down to 1 or gives the spellcaster Boost dice when the time comes to release the spell... That I don't know.

Spell Matrices could easily be a Talent.

Sounds like a good option for classic Eberron Artificer Imbuing, where you cast a spell and store it in an item or a sigil, then release it using a trigger. You could use it for something like Explosive Runes or Arcane Grenades, although we'll probably already get something like this in Terrinoth with the Alchemy rules.