Hi folks - sorry if this has been covered in another thread, and if so, a redirect would be great ?

*Edit* - whoops, just saw someone else posted questions about running Hoth, I'll be off to check that out. Feel free to chime in if you like though!

Otherwise...

I'm taking over the reins as Imperial for Return to Hoth, so it's all new to me and I'll be learning as I go. I'll be facing players and one former imperial with two full campaigns under their belts and good knowledge of how to use their heros synergistically and competitively.

I think they've decided to run MHD 17, Gideon, Mak and Fenn (possibly Jyn).

I've heard Hoth tends to be Rebel- friendly anyway, so I'm worried I'm about to get steamrolled, which won't be much fun for me or for them. I want to give them a fun but challenging game.

Any specific suggestions for Hoth and countering these heros would be helpful, or general tips when it comes to playing a good Imperial (e.g., which class deck, which agenda deck, which types of deployments, strategy, etc).

Many thanks, and as I mentioned, if this has been covered in more detail elsewhere, happy to click a link ?

If I were you I'd ban MHD-19 on Hoth campaign due to his healing powers. Especially in missions without timer (there's a lot in Hoth) it's borderline impossible for Imp to win when he can just undo all the damage

If Rebels decides to go with Gideon + Mak + Jyn, then I have no objection on the 4th hero (pick whatever they like, except MHD-19)

If they decide to go with Gideon + Mak + Fenn, then I'd ban the 4th hero as being: MHD-19/Diala/Shyla/Vinto/Drokkatta (i.e. if you want to get steamrolled as Imperial, get Rebels to pick Gideon + Fenn + Shyla + Diala)

On 22/01/2018 at 6:32 PM, ricope said:

If I were you I'd ban MHD-19 on Hoth campaign due to his healing powers. Especially in missions without timer (there's a lot in Hoth) it's borderline impossible for Imp to win when he can just undo all the damage

This is a logical solution, and thanks for the response! But I really don't want to ban any characters. I'm taking over because the former game runner has been itching to play a hero, MHD 19 in particular, and I'd rather the players have complete freedom when it comes to choosing heros (even if it does make my life difficult) .

I was more wondering about advice in terms of tactics, class decks, agenda sets, etc. to keep it close. I've already reconciled myself to the idea I will lose the campaign. For example, I've read that subversive tactics is strong...? Might that be effective on Hoth with this group?

6 minutes ago, TeethAlmighty said:

This is a logical solution, and thanks for the response! But I really don't want to ban any characters. I'm taking over because the former game runner has been itching to play a hero, MHD 17 in particular, and I'd rather the players have complete freedom when it comes to choosing heros (even if it does make my life difficult) .

I was more wondering about advice in terms of tactics, class decks, agenda sets, etc. to keep it close. I've already reconciled myself to the idea I will lose the campaign. For example, I've read that subversive tactics is strong...? Might that be effective on Hoth with this group?

Yeah you'd have a hard time on Hoth campaign vs. MHD-19 + Fenn + Gideon + Mak since 3/4 heroes are tier A+++ imo

SubTac is strong against new players when they don't know how to build their characters around it

I'd go with Military Might or Technological Superiority : this way you stand a chance to wound 1 hero every turn. Again this might be difficult when MHD-19 is in the team

I usually don't ban specific heroes too but I am an advocate for banning specific combo: you'll be in for a rough campaign if 3/4 Rebels are from Tier A+++ (the ones listed above plus Fenn and Gideon are generally considered top-tier imo. MHD-19 is top-tier too but only in Hoth campaign)

5 minutes ago, ricope said:

Yeah you'd have a hard time on Hoth campaign vs. MHD-19 + Fenn + Gideon + Mak since 3/4 heroes are tier A+++ imo

Oh yes, there will be pain, I'm sure. Maybe they'll go easy on me since I'm new at this, but since the former Imperial lost the Twin Shadows campaign, I don't think he'll be inclined to be nice ?

Quote

SubTac is strong against new players when they don't know how to build their characters around it

I'd go with Military Might or Technological Superiority : this way you stand a chance to wound 1 hero every turn. Again this might be difficult when MHD-19 is in the team

Okay, interesting! I'll have to study up on these. I heard imperial industry is a good agenda card?

6 hours ago, TeethAlmighty said:

Okay, interesting! I'll have to study up on these. I heard imperial industry is a good agenda card?

We're going towards the realm of discussing strategies now

Imp Ind is a attachment reward card that allows that Imp group to do ~: Stun. This is beyond annoying/borderline broken and will easily cripple the Rebels if you have a reliable access to surge. You still need to draw + win the 3 inf agenda mission "Means of Production" though

MM: Straight up boosting firepower. You can get them in any order but I'd get ComVet only after Assault Armor: Sustained Fire, Assault Armor, Combat Veteran, Shock Troopers

TechSup: 2 different builds, you either rush Adaptive Weapons or buy a whole bunch of attachments and eventually get Superior Augment. So if you're going the latter one then leave SupAug last

I'm not sure how much contents you own, but I've heard Hutt Merc from Jabba's Realm box is also very solid: in that one you rush Guild Hunters and suddenly you'll never have wasted surges. Old: 2 surge on eStorm, 1 goes to waste because you can only spend 1 for +2dmg. Now: you can do ~: +2 dmg, ~: Pierce 2, ~: +1 dmg, ~: Hide

Imperial deck poll

Mission balance poll

You're definately going against a tough group l. I'd hope they end up going with jyn, cause I think she's one of the worst heroes haha and that would balance it out. If you are going against MHD, I wouldn't rely too heavily on effects like stun since he can easily take them off his fellow comrads. Also, as was mentioned before, there are several rounds where there is no time limit. The best thing about stun is that it slows the group down, making the time crunch more of a factor. I don't think there would be much of a problem in missions with no timer where a hero takes their full action to remove the stun and heal. As for MM, don't use it with this group. Most of its abilities are canceled out by the heroes chosen. Get an extra armor for your units? Mak will easily pierce it. MM usually dictates the use of troopers, which Fenn can blast and many times kill a whole group in one action. Go with subversive tactics of you want to be competitive. Keep the strain on Gideon and MHD and make their abilities useless.

14 hours ago, ricope said:

We're going towards the realm of discussing strategies now

Imp Ind is a attachment reward card that allows that Imp group to do ~: Stun. This is beyond annoying/borderline broken and will easily cripple the Rebels if you have a reliable access to surge. You still need to draw + win the 3 inf agenda mission "Means of Production" though

Good to know! I'm fine with this. I'm a newbie imperial playing against a broken hero group. If it evens the playing field, perfect. If it's too strong, I can dial things back until balance is achieved. I just gotta win that mission!

14 hours ago, ricope said:

MM: Straight up boosting firepower. You can get them in any order but I'd get ComVet only after Assault Armor: Sustained Fire, Assault Armor, Combat Veteran, Shock Troopers

TechSup: 2 different builds, you either rush Adaptive Weapons or buy a whole bunch of attachments and eventually get Superior Augment. So if you're going the latter one then leave SupAug last

Excellent build suggestions. Thank you!

14 hours ago, ricope said:

I'm not sure how much contents you own

My friend owns Core, Shadows, Hoth, and a bunch of ally and villain packs. I don't have access to any of the deployment cards, or any materials from core or shadows right now so I'm hoping I can figure it all out when he brings them over for the game. I do have the RRG and Hoth guide, but it's been a slow process trying to figure out the step by step aspects of running the game.

14 hours ago, ricope said:

Imperial deck poll

Mission balance poll

Invaluable information, thank you!

6 hours ago, KotasMilitia said:

You're definately going against a tough group l. I'd hope they end up going with jyn, cause I think she's one of the worst heroes haha and that would balance it out.

Lol. They're being very strategic, trying to pick players they think will make a strong group.

6 hours ago, KotasMilitia said:

If you are going against MHD, I wouldn't rely too heavily on effects like stun since he can easily take them off his fellow comrads. Also, as was mentioned before, there are several rounds where there is no time limit. The best thing about stun is that it slows the group down, making the time crunch more of a factor. I don't think there would be much of a problem in missions with no timer where a hero takes their full action to remove the stun and heal.

Interesting! I'm gathering the win conditions for Hoth often rely on wounding heros. Do you think stun could still be useful in terms of robbing them of actions (that could be spent healing, or attacking my units)?

6 hours ago, KotasMilitia said:

As for MM, don't use it with this group. Most of its abilities are canceled out by the heroes chosen. Get an extra armor for your units? Mak will easily pierce it. MM usually dictates the use of troopers, which Fenn can blast and many times kill a whole group in one action. Go with subversive tactics of you want to be competitive. Keep the strain on Gideon and MHD and make their abilities useless.

Mmm. Good point.

I do like MM and TS, but like the idea of limiting Gideon and MHD to balance things out. Any thoughts on good agendas?

I'm not even sure how I'm going to attack Mak at this point. He's either invisible or able to move when I get in range! Oh, I'm going down...

26 minutes ago, TeethAlmighty said:

I do like MM and TS, but like the idea of limiting Gideon and MHD to balance things out. Any thoughts on good agendas?

I'm not even sure how I'm going to attack Mak at this point. He's either invisible or able to move when I get in range! Oh, I'm going down...

Yes, I think stunning would still have its benefits. Taking an action away is always a good thing, it's just that I think the main purpose of stunning is to slow them down, and with no round limit they are ok slowing down. As for Mak, ya he is very tough to bring down. One of the best heroes for sure. That is actually an example I had not considered where stun would be extremely beneficial because he wouldn't be able to disengage while stunned. Eh either way MHD would still remove it easily. Take that advise or leave it haha. You be got a tough campaign comming. I would suggest any agendas or units that force defensive rerolls (HKs, Weequays) or if you have access to the Inquisitor (has a surge for a minus dodge) in order to get to Mak

4 hours ago, TeethAlmighty said:

My friend owns Core, Shadows, Hoth, and a bunch of ally and villain packs. I don't have access to any of the deployment cards, or any materials from core or shadows right now so I'm hoping I can figure it all out when he brings them over for the game.

When you say you don’t have access to core or Shadows... does this help?

http://cards.boardwars.eu/

3 hours ago, KotasMilitia said:

I would suggest any agendas or units that force defensive rerolls (HKs, Weequays) or if you have access to the Inquisitor (has a surge for a minus dodge) in order to get to Mak

Well... it’s one white die hero so don’t commit too many resources to removing the dodge result, but yes it’s good to be prepared. The elite ISB Infiltrators is another good option, same surge as the inquisitor while being a little cheaper for two figures. But once again, that’s if you have access to them.

The general rule is quality of attacks against the black die and quantity of attacks against the white.

34 minutes ago, Uninvited Guest said:

When you say you don’t have access to core or Shadows... does this help?

http://cards.boardwars.eu/

Oh my, yes. Thank you! This will make it much easier to prepare ?

34 minutes ago, Uninvited Guest said:

Well... it’s one white die hero so don’t commit too many resources to removing the dodge result, but yes it’s good to be prepared. The elite ISB Infiltrators is another good option, same surge as the inquisitor while being a little cheaper for two figures. But once again, that’s if you have access to them.

I might! He bought a lot of villain packs. In general, if one figure costs the same as a group of two (or three), is the wiser choice to go with the group?

34 minutes ago, Uninvited Guest said:

The general rule is quality of attacks against the black die and quantity of attacks against the white.

Ah, good to know. So, heavy hitters against black, and groups of scrubs against white...

I assume thus goes out the window though, if you choose to focus fire on a hero?

4 hours ago, KotasMilitia said:

I would suggest any agendas or units that force defensive rerolls (HKs, Weequays) or if you have access to the Inquisitor (has a surge for a minus dodge) in order to get to Mak

Excellent advice - I'll look into that. So those units force the hero to reroll their defence die? That could be the difference between a wound and a "meh"!

7 minutes ago, TeethAlmighty said:

Excellent advice - I'll look into that. So those units force the hero to reroll their defence die? That could be the difference between a wound and a "meh"!

Yes, and the difference between a dodge and a blank can mean a world of difference. Even against black dice it can be very beneficial, but they are much better against white die. And wounding Mak will probably be the hardest one, especially with Gideon moving him all over the place combined with his disengage. In my opinion, you will need to work hard to corner him, and when you finally do, it will be frustrating to see him roll a dodge and avoid all your attacks.

3 hours ago, TeethAlmighty said:

In general, if one figure costs the same as a group of two (or three), is the wiser choice to go with the group?

Some more "advanced" strategy threads if you're interested. Word of caution though: they're fairly long to read, especially the last one

By "advanced" I mean the rules are there, it's more about the "I didn't realize you could do that" type of stuff

Single figure group vs. Multi-figure group deployment analysis

Generic Rebel strategies

Generic Imperial strategies

Playing around with LOS , especially useful for showing Stormtrooper's reroll while avoiding being clustered together/blasted by Fenn + countering Jyn's Quick Shot. Basically everyone shoot then disperse instead of everyone do move 4, shoot and done = great target for blast

Biggest shout-out: tiered analysis for every figure released thus far. It's for skirmish but it transfers to campaign as well (i.e. if it sucks in skirmish, it probably sucks in campaign too). I wouldn't take anything in tier 3 or 4 for open groups unless I know what I'm doing or it really synergizes with my class deck)

12 hours ago, TeethAlmighty said:

In general, if one figure costs the same as a group of two (or three), is the wiser choice to go with the group?

Really it's best to save threat and deploy a lot at once. it might be best if you can do both at the same time to two different deployment points. The reason being that mid to late campaign Fenn could wipe the group or Mak could knock out your single heavy on the first activation.

12 hours ago, TeethAlmighty said:

Ah, good to know. So, heavy hitters against black, and groups of scrubs against white...

I assume thus goes out the window though, if you choose to focus fire on a hero?

You should be doing that anyway, but if you can you may want to choose your deployments based on who you're going after.

I'd recommend house ruling that you can split deployments across points so Fenn doesn't wipe stuff out with blast, and increase threat level by 1. I think the Imperials will still probably lose, but it should be closer.

Read all the mission events ahead of time and plan out your open groups based on that so that you are maximizing your deployments alongside a deployment from a mission event. For example, say it's threat level 3 and you know that you are going to get a free deployment at the end of round 2, make sure you have a deployment group (or combination of) that costs 6. Make sure you're taking free threat bonuses from mission events into account as well. And remember that if a mission event gives you bonus threat at "the end of the round", that threat can't be spent until the next turn's status phase.

Nexus and Hired Guns are extremely useful and cheap. Hired Guns are guaranteed to get attacks as long as you deploy them close enough to the heroes. Nexu is very good at blocking narrow hallways and cornered objectives on timed missions and Bleed is a deceptively nasty condition. The Nexu is also a good way to negate Fenn's Blast and to spread out the deployment of your figures (deploy the Nexu first, then deploy the figures on opposite sides of its body).

Try to move your figures into cover (out of LOS) after they attack so that the Rebels have to spend movement points to attack them.

If you are willing to take some losses early on but want to win the finale, one of the strongest Imperial combos I've found in the game is Imperial Industry and Find the Weakness from the Precision Training deck and just spamming Hired Guns or other cheap 2 pt figures. This might be invalidated a bit by Fenn though, but the Hired Guns can at least stun him on their way out. Otherwise I would recommend Military Might as a counter to Fenn, Show of Force and Sustained Fire is a great way to buff the few attacks you have left after a Fenn blast-fest, and Assault Armor makes it harder for Fenn to wipe a squad off the board with a couple of attacks. Shock Troopers is also great if you do end up getting Imperial Industry from Means of Production, which you should absolutely be including in your agenda deck.

Another deck you might want to consider is Armored onslaught. Power to shields lets you make Fenn just a nobody rebel that can't blast, And you can use it to reduce mak's pierce, which is one of his damage spikes. Mortar is also a great card from that deck. However, you don't have jet troopers so it wouldn't be as effective as it could be.

On 23/01/2018 at 10:35 PM, KotasMilitia said:

Yes, and the difference between a dodge and a blank can mean a world of difference.

How well I know it. In our first campaign a lowly Imperial officer rolled three dodges in a row and we focused so much on taking him out we wasted a round (and the game!)

On 24/01/2018 at 2:08 AM, ricope said:

Some more "advanced" strategy threads if you're interested. Word of caution though: they're fairly long to read, especially the last one

I love this stuff. You just made my day.

On 24/01/2018 at 2:08 AM, ricope said:

Biggest shout-out: tiered analysis for every figure released thus far. It's for skirmish but it transfers to campaign as well (i.e. if it sucks in skirmish, it probably sucks in campaign too). I wouldn't take anything in tier 3 or 4 for open groups unless I know what I'm doing or it really synergizes with my class deck)

Amazing analysis. Will make choosing my groups so much easier!

On 24/01/2018 at 10:37 AM, Uninvited Guest said:

Really it's best to save threat and deploy a lot at once. it might be best if you can do both at the same time to two different deployment points. The reason being that mid to late campaign Fenn could wipe the group or Mak could knock out your single heavy on the first activation.

Excellent point. I'm beginning to see that part of being a good Imperial is reconciling yourself to loss. Many, many losses... lol

Quote

You should be doing that anyway, but if you can you may want to choose your deployments based on who you're going after.

Yesss... If Mak, lots of units

Fenn, some heavy hitters...

On 24/01/2018 at 11:49 AM, Union said:

I'd recommend house ruling that you can split deployments across points so Fenn doesn't wipe stuff out with blast, and increase threat level by 1. I think the Imperials will still probably lose, but it should be closer.

Again, this is a logical solution! However, I'm committed to trying to play as "pure" a game as possible, if that makes sense.

On 24/01/2018 at 3:43 PM, Tvboy said:

Read all the mission events ahead of time and plan out your open groups based on that so that you are maximizing your deployments alongside a deployment from a mission event. For example, say it's threat level 3 and you know that you are going to get a free deployment at the end of round 2, make sure you have a deployment group (or combination of) that costs 6.

Would this mean spending no threat in round two, so that I could double up on threat in round three AND use the free group? Are you saying that having a "weaker" round make sense if it allows you to swarm a hero a round later? Interesting!

On 24/01/2018 at 3:43 PM, Tvboy said:

Nexus and Hired Guns are extremely useful and cheap. Hired Guns are guaranteed to get attacks as long as you deploy them close enough to the heroes.

Hired guns are intriguing. They look as fragile as paper, but are you saying that the "guaranteed" attack compensates for having the units one-shotted and losing that threat purchase?

On 24/01/2018 at 3:43 PM, Tvboy said:

Nexu is very good at blocking narrow hallways and cornered objectives on timed missions and Bleed is a deceptively nasty condition. The Nexu is also a good way to negate Fenn's Blast and to spread out the deployment of your figures (deploy the Nexu first, then deploy the figures on opposite sides of its body).

Yes. I like it! Are nexus limited by habitat?

On 24/01/2018 at 3:43 PM, Tvboy said:

Try to move your figures into cover (out of LOS) after they attack so that the Rebels have to spend movement points to attack them.

Solid. Hit and run. I can see why some people have recommended Jet Troopers (which, sadly, I do not have)

On 24/01/2018 at 3:43 PM, Tvboy said:

If you are willing to take some losses early on but want to win the finale, one of the strongest Imperial combos I've found in the game is Imperial Industry and Find the Weakness from the Precision Training deck and just spamming Hired Guns or other cheap 2 pt figures. This might be invalidated a bit by Fenn though, but the Hired Guns can at least stun him on their way out.

Haven't heard this strategy yet! Is there a way to ensure that I win imperial industry? I was hoping to activate the mission when the rebels have juicy reward missions of their own to tempt them, but my reading of the rules is that I have to activate the means of production mission the moment I purchase the card, correct?

On 24/01/2018 at 3:43 PM, Tvboy said:

Otherwise I would recommend Military Might as a counter to Fenn, Show of Force and Sustained Fire is a great way to buff the few attacks you have left after a Fenn blast-fest, and Assault Armor makes it harder for Fenn to wipe a squad off the board with a couple of attacks. Shock Troopers is also great if you do end up getting Imperial Industry from Means of Production, which you should absolutely be including in your agenda deck.

Another vote for military might. Excellent advice. I can't say I don't have options!

On 24/01/2018 at 4:08 PM, MadFuhrer said:

Another deck you might want to consider is Armored onslaught. Power to shields lets you make Fenn just a nobody rebel that can't blast, And you can use it to reduce mak's pierce, which is one of his damage spikes. Mortar is also a great card from that deck. However, you don't have jet troopers so it wouldn't be as effective as it could be.

I hadn't considered power to shields. Yes, that would be awesome against Fenn and Mak!