It is a truth universally acknowledged that Fleet Ambush is a terrible objective ...

All right, some people seem to be taking it into organized play, but the high-ranked players never include it in their fleets and the agreement about the cr*apitude of Fleet Ambush is greater than almost anything in Armada.

"The first player must deploy half of his flotillas (rounded down) in the ambush zone."

Prevents the first player from either deploying their one or two real combat ships to ambush the second player, or deploying only activation padding flotillas in the ambush zone to keep the real combat ships safe.

"In the first round, the second player has the first activation in both the Ship Phase and the Squadron Phase. The first player has the second activation. After that, the activation sequence returns to normal, starting with the first player taking the third activation in each phase."

Lets the second player let loose a powerful alpha strike to start the game, instead of sitting and taking damage.

If that's not enough: "In the first round, the second player activates first in both the Ship Phase and the Squadron Phase. The players continue alternating activations for the rest of the round."

Finally, the card allows carrier fleets to deploy all of their squadrons in the ambush zone, making it easier for them to become the ambushers. If necessary:

"The first player must deploy at least one-third, but no more than two-thirds, of his squadrons in the ambush zone (round up)."

So what you are saying is first player should take Bail?

Nope. With my wording, and the wording on Bail, he would have no effect. The first player remains first player (so Bail doesn't do anything), it's just that the order of activations is changed.

I suppose you could use Bail for the tokens ...

Of course, if you have Bail and you're going to be the second player, you could use Fleet Ambush and use Bail to accomplish what the rule I suggest gives you, but for 7 points.

34 minutes ago, elbmc1969 said:

"The first player must deploy at half of his flotillas (rounded down) in the ambush zone."

I honestly think there may be at least one word missing here. The first player must deploy at **least** half of his flotillas in the ambush zone? If that's it, then I'm not entirely sure how this is fixing anything. If I'm running an ISD and 4 flotillas, this doesn't prevent me from putting my one attack ship in the ambush zone.

Alternatively maybe it has an extra word? The first player must deploy at half of his flotillas in the ambush zone? If that's the case, then it does nothing if they are running one or no flotillas. They can still get the jump on the fleet with their main attack ships.

I think one of the main issues with this objective is that it doesn't generate extra points. In Organized Play you want to win big, which means pumping up that MOV. If the objective doesn't generate points through victory tokens or doubling the point value of a ship, it's less likely to see tournament play. None of these fixes will change that.

So here's the thing. Fleet Ambush is "bad" because Raddus exists and drops a Large inside your deployment zone round 1.

So if you're facing against possible Raddus lists, it's a bad, bad plan that can result in you dying.

But.

What happens when you, as a Raddus player, put Fleet Ambush in as your objective?

Does it need any change then? Or does Raddus warp in a fleet on top of your s*** and suddenly Fleet Ambush is the standard yellow Raddus objective?

Do you know why fleet ambush isnt taken? It has nothing to do with flotillas.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Do you know why fleet ambush isnt taken? It has nothing to do with flotillas.

Agreed. It has everything to do with the first player being able to blow your face up with squadrons, Demolisher , or a big nasty ship first thing on the first turn, which makes the objectively actively bad for the second player. The usual snark about Fleet Ambush is "who is being ambushed, exactly?"

If they ever redo objectives (which I am down for, if FFG is listening), I'd love it if Fleet Ambush actually felt like more of an ambush, but balancing that could prove quite difficult.

Fix: the first player must pass his first activation in round one.

Still problematic about the squadrons though.

9 minutes ago, Astrodar said:

Alternatively maybe it has an extra word? The first player must deploy at half of his flotillas in the ambush zone? If that's the case, then it does nothing if they are running one or no flotillas. They can still get the jump on the fleet with their main attack ships.

Fixed. The "at" was left over from a previous version. The intent was no effect on zero-flotilla fleets, and it's fine that single-flotilla fleets can't deploy the flotilla in the ambush zone (for the sake of rule simplicity, if nothing else).

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Do you know why fleet ambush isnt taken? It has nothing to do with flotillas.

But a fix needs to take them into account. The flotilla rule helps ensure that the first player's actual combat strength is split apart, as much as is possible. If the first player has a single ISD and a mass of flotillas, there's not much that can be done.

3 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Fix: the first player must pass his first activation in round one.

Still problematic about the squadrons though.

First player must pass his first activation in round 1. After deployment, first player toggles all of his squadrons to activated.

7 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Agreed. It has everything to do with the first player being able to blow your face up with squadrons, Demolisher , or a big nasty ship first thing on the first turn, which makes the objectively actively bad for the second player. The usual snark about Fleet Ambush is "who is being ambushed, exactly?"

I have the feeling that you didn't read the rest of the post. Giving the second player the first activation addresses that. The squadron limit affects those carrier fleets as well.

1 hour ago, elbmc1969 said:

If that's not enough: "In the first round, the second player activates first in both the Ship Phase and the Squadron Phase. The players continue alternating activations for the rest of the round."

Finally, the card allows carrier fleets to deploy all of their squadrons in the ambush zone, making it easier for them to become the ambushers. If necessary:

"The first player must deploy at least one-third, but no more than two-thirds, of his squadrons in the ambush zone (round up)."

7 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Fix: the first player must pass his first activation in round one.

Still problematic about the squadrons though.

What I said. For activations, that was the harsher version. I prefer to change the activation order of the Squadron Phase as well, just in case.

5 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

First player must pass his first activation in round 1. After deployment, first player toggles all of his squadrons to activated.

The squadron deployment limits and the activation order changes aren't enough???

"The first ship too activate in the Ambush zone must discard its Dial without revealing it."

Only Thrawn, Garm and Tarkin get a leg up on the Ambush then.

So there are currently three ways I know to play fleet ambush as second player. One has been around for a while, one more recent and boosted by wave heaven and the other completely new to the wave.

Firstly) Rieekan. Fairly straightforward, he was never bothered by the constraints of fleet ambush and delights in setting himself up for a bloody fight.

Second) grav well interdictor. Block of half the ambush zone with a grav well and the other half with obstacles. Now who is actually doing the ambushing? Unfortunately, this method has always come with the drawback of taking an interdictor. Enter wave heaven and we now have dcaps with heavy ion emplacements. The interdictor isnt deadweight anymore.

Third) the new method. Bail. Probably with Ackbar and Bwings, or maybe a liberty. Due to the deployment constraints you should be able to deploy in such a way as to be able to one shot a ship with your first activation.

This third option is similar to your suggestion, however, it doesnt have the massive flaw of letting demolisher attack first in a grav well infected ambush zone. There is a reason why Bail is rebel only, lets consider that here.

Fleet ambush has been fixed to a degree by the new wave.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Third) the new method. Bail. Probably with Ackbar and Bwings, or maybe a liberty. Due to the deployment constraints you should be able to deploy in such a way as to be able to one shot a ship with your first activation.

This third option is similar to your suggestion, however, it doesnt have the massive flaw of letting demolisher attack first in a grav well infected ambush zone. There is a reason why Bail is rebel only, lets consider that here.

It doesn't have a flaw that's present in my suggestion? Or it doesn't have the flaw present in using an Interdictor? That's an impressively ambiguous sentence.

Could you write a clear explanation of why Bail is Rebel-only? Is that a general observation, or is it specific to Fleet Ambush? Your terse style leaves me confused.

1 minute ago, elbmc1969 said:

It doesn't have a flaw that's present in my suggestion? Or it doesn't have the flaw present in using an Interdictor? That's an impressively ambiguous sentence.

Could you write a clear explanation of why Bail is Rebel-only? Is that a general observation, or is it specific to Fleet Ambush? Your terse style leaves me confused.

Bail would be broken with Avenger. Full stop.

Further more, giving demolisher first activation in a fleet ambush is broken

Giving first activation to a quasar bomb a speed 0 ship with 6 bombers in a fleet ambush is broken.

Rebels dont have nearly the same tricks and mc30s cannot take Bail thankfully.

I love ffg.

11 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

So there are currently three ways I know to play fleet ambush as second player. One has been around for a while, one more recent and boosted by wave heaven and the other completely new to the wave.

Firstly) Rieekan. Fairly straightforward, he was never bothered by the constraints of fleet ambush and delights in setting himself up for a bloody fight.

Second) grav well interdictor. Block of half the ambush zone with a grav well and the other half with obstacles. Now who is actually doing the ambushing? Unfortunately, this method has always come with the drawback of taking an interdictor. Enter wave heaven and we now have dcaps with heavy ion emplacements. The interdictor isnt deadweight anymore.

Third) the new method. Bail. Probably with Ackbar and Bwings, or maybe a liberty. Due to the deployment constraints you should be able to deploy in such a way as to be able to one shot a ship with your first activation.

This third option is similar to your suggestion, however, it doesnt have the massive flaw of letting demolisher attack first in a grav well infected ambush zone. There is a reason why Bail is rebel only, lets consider that here.

Fleet ambush has been fixed to a degree by the new wave.

Fourth: Skilled Spacers it in when you really need deployment advantage, your opponent has it from squadrons but not with ships, and you know you can weather the opener.

Case example: five-MC30 swarm matched against an ISD2 with a couple small support ships and a bunch of squadrons. I really needed to kill the ISD and he had spent our last matchup running away with it, and was going to do so again this game. So I SS in FA to get deployment advantage, he takes it, and I dangle a nice shrimp out there just in range of the ISD to get him to commit it. He does, then I stuff the other four into his front arc with a big shiteating grin.

Setup: On the first player's odd deployments, starting with the first deployment, the second player chooses one of the first player's ships. The first player must deploy that ship in the ambush zone. When deploying squadrons, the first player must place the squadrons within distance 1-2 of ships not in the ambush zone. After deploying fleets, place one objective token on each ship in the ambush zone.

End of Game: The fleet point cost of a destroyed objective ship is doubled. Do not double the cost of its upgrade cards.

2 hours ago, stonestokes said:

Setup: On the first player's odd deployments, starting with the first deployment, the second player chooses one of the first player's ships. The first player must deploy that ship in the ambush zone. When deploying squadrons, the first player must place the squadrons within distance 1-2 of ships not in the ambush zone. After deploying fleets, place one objective token on each ship in the ambush zone.

End of Game: The fleet point cost of a destroyed objective ship is doubled. Do not double the cost of its upgrade cards.

I like your setup portion; I think it's strong enough that you don't need the fleet point doubling.

Why not take a page from legacy type games? Take your fleet ambush card, now rip it in half and trash it. Problem solved.

I know it has potential to be bad, but in my sloan/ISD2Avenger/Quasar list I've had decent success with it so far.

On 22/01/2018 at 3:10 AM, Ardaedhel said:

I like your setup portion; I think it's strong enough that you don't need the fleet point doubling.

Or it's the ships not in the ambush zone that could be doubled ...

Anyway, I think this objective as it stands is just a high stake/high reward objective. You could take it if you take large fortresses only, or keep your one-shot-able ships out of range of the first activation, or barricade them with tie fighters/Zs. I mean, you take this objective, you bring something to slow down bombers, right ?