I'm working on a campaign that mix fantasy with gunpowder. And I'm not sure which stats I should give to a gunpowder weapon. I'm tempted to give it the "limited ammo 1" but that would make them underpowered compared to, for example, bows. So I'm thinking about giving them more power per "shot", but I fear that my players are going to use the first round of every combat to shoot and discard the weapon.

Eventually I decided to give them the "Pierce" quality (muskeet pierce 3, pistol pierce 2 ...) and standard ranged weapon damage.

What do you think? Are the weapons still underpowered?

Rather than limited ammo -

Item Quality: Prepare (x).

I'd probably stick to x=1 or maybe 2

With Prepare you can then unleash fury if you position yourself well as the manoeuvre only really needs to be taken when you relocate the weapon.

Limited Ammo with pierce is a decent balance. Perhaps you could even bump up the damage one or two:

Bows; cheap, fast shot, lower damage

Black Powder; expensive, slow firing, high Damage.

On ‎22‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 2:46 AM, Trolleitor said:

I'm working on a campaign that mix fantasy with gunpowder. And I'm not sure which stats I should give to a gunpowder weapon. I'm tempted to give it the "limited ammo 1" but that would make them underpowered compared to, for example, bows. So I'm thinking about giving them more power per "shot", but I fear that my players are going to use the first round of every combat to shoot and discard the weapon.

Eventually I decided to give them the "Pierce" quality (muskeet pierce 3, pistol pierce 2 ...) and standard ranged weapon damage.

What do you think? Are the weapons still underpowered?

I wouldn't consider the prospect they may not fire a shot after the first one a detriment though; just make sure they're able to use their musket for more than just the first shot?

i.e. consider affixing a bayonet to the musket so it can be used in melee. Using muskets as an improvised club or spear (if it has the bayonet attached) will give the combat some depth and dimension to it, because otherwise you might end up with "this round, we shoot! Next round we reload. Round after that, we shoot! Round after that, we reload..."

The video games Assassin's Creed III and IV make good reference points for how you'd use muskets etc in combat (spoiler: you shoot then use melee weapons. Sometimes someone will disengage from a group melee to reload and shoot again. Absolutely steal that for your game).

Personally, I'd make them Prepare 2 weapons that need to be prepared every time they fire. That gives players a reason to A) carry a bunch of flintlock pistols and B) gives them a reason to take Quick Draw.

I prefer this method over Limited Ammo because most folks using flintlocks are going to carry a bunch of shot and gunpower (LIKELY enough for the engagement) and I always felt like Limited Ammo weapons would only have 3-4 shots at most being carried on the person.

These are just my feelings on the weapons.

On 21.1.2018 at 4:46 PM, Trolleitor said:

So I'm thinking about giving them more power per "shot", but I fear that my players are going to use the first round of every combat to shoot and discard the weapon.

Which I think is quite an accurate model of using gun-powder weapons. I would probably end-up giving them limited ammo 1, pierce X, and some other fitting qualities. Also, probably somewhat more damage than a bow shot.

Pros:
-High damage

Cons:
-Low cadence

It's the biggest difference between fireweapons and the bows, crossbows, etc.

Generally high cost too

On 21/01/2018 at 1:46 PM, Trolleitor said:

but I fear that my players are going to use the first round of every combat to shoot and discard the weapon.

It's exactly how several smart soldiers did/do in combat to survive, when the weapon in empty (temporary useless for the long range combat purpouse. They still can use as an improvised melee weapon also). I don't think how this can be a problem. They need to use more weapons, to avoid the reload, wich will have a several impact in the emcumbrance. Or they need a melee weapon to fight, and they must be good fighting in melee to survive. They can pick the weapon after the combat.

Just now, Bellyon said:

It's exactly how several smart soldiers did/do in combat to survive, when the weapon in empty (temporary useless for the longe range combat purpouse. They still can use as a improvised melee weapon also). I don't think how this can be a problem. They need to use more weapons, to avoid the reload, with will have a several impact in the emcumbrance. Or they need a melee weapon to fight, and they must be good fighting in melee to survive. They can pick the weapon after the combat.

(Or affix a bayonet to the end and use the musket as an improvised weapon...?)

1 minute ago, Endersai said:

(Or affix a bayonet to the end and use the musket as an improvised weapon...?)

Sure, it's a smart decision also. There are exotic weapons also, like sword-pistols, hammer-cannons, etc. A bayonet isn't powerful as a lance or sword, but can to a good job. But in game aspects, it'd work like an weapon upgrade, which means -1 slot to upgrades, if I remember well.

The problem with using Prepare is that you can't "pre-prepare" a prepare weapon for combat like you can a musket or flintlock. That first shot would still require the prepare to go down RAW IIRC. Slow-Firing from Star Wars RPG is possibly a better fit, though I don't believe that requires the use of an action or maneuver between firing, so there's a weakness there, too. It'd be easy enough to create a "Musket" weapon quality that sort of combines the elements and wording you need from both, though.

Another neat option you might want for thematic purposes, is to just have a house rule where reloads take 2 actions, and that action is a Cool/Coordination/Discipline check depending on the circumstance. If you get <AD> <AD> <AD> or <TR> on the check, you reload in one action instead of two. If you fail, obviously itll take an extra round. If you get Threat, it might negatively impact the shot (with setback) because it wasn't packed optimally, and advantage can do the opposite. A <DR> might create a backfire or jam or otherwise negatively impact the weapon. You might even have a Tier 2 or Tier 3 talent that allows reloads to only take 1 reload action.

It could bog things down, potentially. But, it creates some real utility for Coordination, and encouraging skills other than combat skills is always good for game balance. It also can provide more thematic moments where you're staring down a volley of musket fire and have to calmly reload your weapon. It also gives PCs a check to make each round that might otherwise impact the game instead of just waiting passively to check a box that their weapon is reloaded.

All of that said, if this reloading issue isn't something you want to be at the forefront of your games, then I'd just rule that the rounds are abstract enough in length that a musket can totally be reloaded with 2 maneuvers. This way, if they want to suffer strain, they can fire once per round, otherwise it might take longer.

5 hours ago, KRKappel said:

The problem with using Prepare is that you can't "pre-prepare" a prepare weapon for combat like you can a musket or flintlock.

What makes you think that?

from the rules for prepare

Quote

at your GM’s discretion, moving with the item, being knocked prone with the item, or other disruptions may require the use it to perform the preparation maneuvers again for using the item

Meaning the default condition is that you CAN do stuff between preparing and using the item.

Seems to me that the prepare trait was included specifically to cover musket type weapons.

Besides, this is a RPG, not a competitive wargame. If the GM says something works a certain way, that’s how it works.

5 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

Meaning the default condition is that you CAN do stuff between preparing and using the item.

Seems to me that the prepare trait was included specifically to cover musket type weapons.

That neatly ignores the very first sentence, they should be read in context and together:

”Items with this quality require time to set up before being used.”

Sure you can change Prepare to be a Reload quality, but then it’s no longer Prepare, so just call it Reload.

Reasons not to use Prepare:

1`.) The Prepare rating only refers to the time before being able to start firing a weapon. It does not apply between each shot unless the GM house rules it so. RAW a weapon with Prepare 2 would require 2 preparation maneuvers to set up and use, and then it could be fired every action after that.

2.) The Prepare rating RAW does not generally allow for pre-preparing a weapon. It is generally given to weapons like missile tubes (which presumably need time to lock onto a target, or a rotary cannon that needs to get spinning before firing, or a cip-quad that needs time to deploy and get put into the firing position before firing. You can't "pre-prepare" a missile tube. Yes, as you state, teh GM can do whatever they want, but RAW, prepare just isn't the best choice, and requires more house-ruling than other options.

Slow-Firing, on the other hand, does fit the bill much closer, but you'd still want to probably house rule that so you are requiring maneuvers or actions equal to the slow-firing rating between firing rather than just a set amount of time to expire. But other than that, it fits the bill perfectly.

And really, as I said above, you can probably just do it as Limited-Ammo 1 and require a normal reload between each round, and have it work out fine and not bog play down as much, unless the GM really really wants that to be a major, setting defining element to color the combat with.

1 minute ago, KRKappel said:

And really, as I said above, you can probably just do it as Limited-Ammo 1 and require a normal reload between each round, and have it work out fine and not bog play down as much, unless the GM really really wants that to be a major, setting defining element to color the combat with.

This is the simplest and neatest option, movement isn’t an issue of gm discretion and a manoeuvre is always required.

If you think a single manoeuvre isn’t enough then change the rules around reloading a weapon with limited Ammo, make it two manoeuvres.

If you want people to be Reload faster if they have training then create a custom Talent called Quick Reload (or add more to Quick Draw).

31 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

That neatly ignores the very first sentence, they should be read in context and together:

”Items with this quality require time to set up before being used.”

Sure you can change Prepare to be a Reload quality, but then it’s no longer Prepare, so just call it Reload.

And where does that sentence indicate that there can be no delay between the prepare maneuver and the use action? The item requires time to, well, prepare it before it can be fired. Nowhere does it say that preparation can’t be done days in advance.

19 minutes ago, KRKappel said:

1`.) The Prepare rating only refers to the time before being able to start firing a weapon. It does not apply between each shot unless the GM house rules it so. RAW a weapon with Prepare 2 would require 2 preparation maneuvers to set up and use, and then it could be fired every action after that.

I can at least see that interpretation, sort of, though I don’t think that’s what is intended.

19 minutes ago, KRKappel said:

The Prepare rating RAW does not generally allow for pre-preparing a weapon.

Based on what line of text? There is absolutely nothing in the text for prepare that suggests the use has to immediately follow the preparation, and, in fact, the text I originally quoted indicates the opposite, that you CAN prepare the weapon, then do other stuff, then use it. Unless your GM rules “moving with the item, being knocked prone with the item, or other disruptions may require the use it to perform the preparation maneuvers again for using the item”

Slow firing and limited ammo, however, include text that show they don’t fit. Slow firing requires no activity on the part of the user for the item to be reused, just for time to pass, while limited ammo indicates that you have to track the ammo supply, which is not something this system would want you to do with musket balls and powder.

You guys really seem to be assuming a lot about prepare that isn’t in the text at all.

Every single weapon that can only fire a limited number of times before being reloaded has the Limited Ammo quality.

Every single weapon that requires a player to “set it up” before firing as much as they want has the Prepare quality.

Why does the Bipod and Tripod attachments add Prepare 1 and Prepare 2 to the item if it has zero impact on how often it can shoot.

Now if you need an item to reload black powder weapons then that’s as simple as:

This item provides everything you need to keep reloading your black powder weapon. Your GM may choose to spend a Despair to have your supply of ammunition run out.

Your arguing with a person who writes in half the Star Wars books FFG produce, including the equipment chapters, not to mention he is a military trained individual for which FFG specifically allocated him Age of Rebellion book for.

Then you should have been citing those things instead of the text for prepare. Those examples are actual evidence.

Plus, you specifically were arguing that you couldn’t do other stuff between preparing and using, which you most certainly could with, for example, a tripod weapon.

Fair call. For me I think the best example the developers give of their intentions is the Hand Cannon:

Someone firing a hand cannon probably has to brace themself to deal with the significant recoil, which we’ve represented with the Prepare quality. It has to reload, so characters only get one shot (but that’s usually enough).