The community would do well to read and take to heart what Sirlin wrote in this fantastic article, especially in light of all this Nym/Miranda witch-hunting bull.

Introducing...the scrub

the article is not written for the hypothetical scenario that a game mechanic is so overwhelming that it does, in fact, require re-balancing because the list of counters is so narrow that it runs the risk of stagnating the overall game

because that obviously never happens or has happened, not in any other game in existence and especially not this game

and while it may be the goal of an individual to win, that is merely the goal of a very small subset of players even in the competitive environment. This group will only shrink if there is too much of a clear, optimal strategy and not enough versatility to hold interests in various playstyles. Plus, there is a number of spectators to consider, especially since they're generally present in greater numbers than the competitors. A lot of esports competitions are large, broadcasted affairs that rely on community interest to sustain which is why ANY game that wishes to be taken competitively has to pay attention and tweak their ****. In x-wing's specific case it is to a far lesser degree, but interest in a competitive environment must still be maintained if FFG is to bother with it.

now regardless of whether or not Captain Doni falls into that category of "actual bull", I can't really say. What I can say is that no one seems to be in a hurry to rush to the defense of Trajectory + genius interaction. "playing to win" (even in the implied case of deeper tactics of things commonly labeled "cheap", though again the actuality of this differs from game to game) doesn't seem like it will change anyone's mind

sorry, sometimes "scrub" or "git gud" non-arguments just won't cut it

Keep this WAAC bull off the forum.

25 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

the article is not written for the hypothetical scenario that a game mechanic is so overwhelming that it does, in fact, require re-balancing because the list of counters is so narrow that it runs the risk of stagnating the overall game

because that obviously never happens or has happened, not in any other game in existence and especially not this game

and while it may be the goal of an individual to win, that is merely the goal of a very small subset of players even in the competitive environment. This group will only shrink if there is too much of a clear, optimal strategy and not enough versatility to hold interests in various playstyles. Plus, there is a number of spectators to consider, especially since they're generally present in greater numbers than the competitors. A lot of esports competitions are large, broadcasted affairs that rely on community interest to sustain which is why ANY game that wishes to be taken competitively has to pay attention and tweak their ****. In x-wing's specific case it is to a far lesser degree, but interest in a competitive environment must still be maintained if FFG is to bother with it.

now regardless of whether or not Captain Doni falls into that category of "actual bull", I can't really say. What I can say is that no one seems to be in a hurry to rush to the defense of Trajectory + genius interaction. "playing to win" (even in the implied case of deeper tactics of things commonly labeled "cheap", though again the actuality of this differs from game to game) doesn't seem like it will change anyone's mind

sorry, sometimes "scrub" or "git gud" non-arguments just won't cut it

I don't think we've had a strategy, yet, that truly warrants bannings, except maybe Palpatine for tournament logistics reasons because of how long it would draw games out. You do realize X-Wing has a much wider top tier than most other and more competitive games? The constant community cries for banning because they can't figure anything out or don't want to play anything besides A-Wings is tiring. Getting good is not a non-argument except for someone who has no intention of doing so.

You're really going to have to cite your sources for xwing having "a wider top tier than most other and more competitive games"

Especially given the showings that seem to have kick-started this whole trend in the first place

A little bit of A, a little bit of B.

The game is in a much healthier stat than it has been in a long time. A good indicator is how many threads we currently have that focus on the complexity creep („not beginner friendly“) instead of nerfs. We have one of these rare moments when everyone agrees that Genius+TS is not supposed to work. There are cards that are obvious choices (Miranda/Nym, Harpoons, Sabine, ...) where a change would improve the game. But for once there is not much wrong with the game.

(Edit: The only Many) voices against a change and calling for waits are those b*tthurt about their lowered chances because they intended to play the objectively best squad to win. They give different reasons, as Mynocks pointed out, but it is right now very clear that the devs did not want it to work and they released their emergency FAQ through back alleys like we‘ve never dared to dream in our wildest X-Wing dreams.

There is no reason for a witch hunt. And the only witch was killed, gutted and displayed on Facebook by the FFG HQ marshall.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The only voices against a change and calling for waits are those b*tthurt about their lowered chances because they intended to play the objectively best squad to win.

Objectively false. I've never played it. I have played against it. I don't think it's unbeatable or a problem logistically for tournaments so I think this overreaction from the community over ONE weekend's results is indicative of a community problem, not the game's problem.

If FFG decides to FAQ it, fine. I have no problem. It would make my life easier in fact. However, I see no need to pull my diapers up and insist TOs break the current rules or an immediate, corrective action needs to be taken because a list did exceptionally ONE weekend. Maybe it is too good but how can the community make this claim so quickly and with so few data points?

I'm against a change and calling to wait because I'm not impetuous, not because I'm trying to protect a list I don't even play.

I'm sorry, you are right. Many voices are what I mentioned.
There are few inbetween that are right in their arguments, that FFG has to take a stand and that TOs can't break RAW.

But a pragmatic solution seems to be that a rules-Pope, out of FFG HQ, can introduce FAQ changes early. This clearly is a dangerous path because it could open all kinds of cans of worms. But it could also be handled reasonably.

Is it really so bad if a guy next to the devs can relay their ex-cathedra rulings while they+we wait on LFL-approval? I don't think it is.

This would not open up arbitrary RAI-changes. Instead it is an emergency tool for clear mistakes that the devs did not intend. As it seems to be the case here.

The guys example of Street Fighter is ridiculous, short sighted and wrong. He references a throw as a counter to block and “scrubs” whine about the counter. Here’s the issue, everyone absolutely everyone, from chun-li to zangief has throw as a move. It’s a matter of timing and learning to use and anticipate the counter.

Xwing does NOT have universal counters, it is rock paper scissors at best so either you have the answer or not.

1 hour ago, AceWing said:

The community would do well to read and take to heart what Sirlin wrote in this fantastic article, especially in light of all this Nym/Miranda witch-hunting bull.

Introducing...the scrub

“Blah blah blah, I’m butt hurt because I didn’t get to run NymMiranda, blah blah blah. People who play the game to enjoy it are ‘scrubs’ people who are WAAC jobs are ‘good players’ blah blah blah”

If these type of A wholes are going to label cool players ‘scrubs’ then I will proudly take on that label and wear a SCRUB t shirt to the next tournament I go to, with the back saying WAAC Jobs go home.

2 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

“Blah blah blah, I’m butt hurt because I didn’t get to run NymMiranda, blah blah blah. People who play the game to enjoy it are ‘scrubs’ people who are WAAC jobs are ‘good players’ blah blah blah”

If these type of A wholes are going to label cool players ‘scrubs’ then I will proudly take on that label and wear a SCRUB t shirt to the next tournament I go to, with the back saying WAAC Jobs go home.

Dude I’m down at Origins. Going to talk to my Silk Screening buddy. Don’t sue me for ip ?

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is it really so bad if a guy next to the devs can relay their ex-cathedra rulings while they+we wait on LFL-approval? I don't think it is.

I actually have no issue with this. Fixes should be swift when needed. My issue is with the community's impulsive response time and again. These boards are constantly flooded with cries for fixes that aren't really needed. I think this is another of those times because I highly doubt all those crying for fixes have put in the time to learn the matchups and counters in one week.

6 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

The guys example of Street Fighter is ridiculous, short sighted and wrong. He references a throw as a counter to block and “scrubs” whine about the counter. Here’s the issue, everyone absolutely everyone, from chun-li to zangief has throw as a move. It’s a matter of timing and learning to use and anticipate the counter.

Xwing does NOT have universal counters, it is rock paper scissors at best so either you have the answer or not.

You might want to read it again so you understand what's being said before you criticize it. He points out players who call repeated throws "cheap". He calls them scrubs because they don't learn to beat it and make excuses for their losses on externals instead of improving.

19 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm sorry, you are right. Many voices are what I mentioned.
There are few inbetween that are right in their arguments, that FFG has to take a stand and that TOs can't break RAW.

But a pragmatic solution seems to be that a rules-Pope, out of FFG HQ, can introduce FAQ changes early. This clearly is a dangerous path because it could open all kinds of cans of worms. But it could also be handled reasonably.

Is it really so bad if a guy next to the devs can relay their ex-cathedra rulings while they+we wait on LFL-approval? I don't think it is.

This would not open up arbitrary RAI-changes. Instead it is an emergency tool for clear mistakes that the devs did not intend. As it seems to be the case here.

If, and its a big if, the reason for the long delay's in getting official rules clarifications, FAQ, and Errata is the legal requirements and relationship between FFG and LFL, its actually quite clever to use the fact that a TO and/or Marshall "is an expert on the game’s rules and regulations and the final authority on their application during a tournament" and can therefore rule on anything before or during a tournament*. Using one particular location, such as the FFG Game Center official tournaments, as the canary to let everyone know what is going on allows them to bypass the legally required BS.

Of course, people generally don't like activist TO's, but we can at least see that location that is literally down the hall from the dev's as a good source.

*FFG is always capable of not inviting a TO or Marshal back for another tournament for actual runaway TO's, but the ruling still stands.

Yeah I just call them Nerf Herders. You can see them on the forums saying Nerf This and Nerf That and I lost so Nerf what I lost to, Nerf the Top 8 because I didn't make it there.

Then only time they cheer the game is when some Nerfrata in the latest NerF.A.Q hits what they lost to and anyone that disagrees or doesn't like the change is obviously the noob that only used what just got nerfed.

Their comments can be seen on the computer screen at the start.

Tier 3 should lose to tier 1 Obviously.

7 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Dude I’m down at Origins. Going to talk to my Silk Screening buddy. Don’t sue me for ip ?

Heck, if you go through the effort, I’ll gladly buy one from you!

1 minute ago, AceWing said:

You might want to read it again so you understand what's being said before you criticize it. He points out players who call repeated throws "cheap". He calls them scrubs because they don't learn to beat it and make excuses for their losses on externals instead of improving.

Yeah no my reading comprehension is fine. And the point I was making is that everyone is capable of doing the “throw cheapness” so you can use the counter yourself and choice of player is irrelevant. In xwing that is not true at all. Who you choose is EXTREMELY important. So crying about people crying about 2 systems that are not compatible is sad.

Well a lot of the aforementioned scrubs (AKA Nerf Herders) suffer from what I call MLG syndrome. Those infected with MLG syndrome like to call themselves Pros, they believe that the game should be played in a certain style. Of course that style is one that they have been good at in practicing for it as it is the superior style since it is the one that all the Pros use. They are not for inclusivity at all because they don't want their game being controlled by noobs who haven't been practicing their style and they need to Git Gud at their style since it isn't one that is easy to learn otherwise it wouldn't be for Pros.

That is the problem X-wing has now.

2 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Well a lot of the aforementioned scrubs (AKA Nerf Herders) suffer from what I call MLG syndrome. Those infected with MLG syndrome like to call themselves Pros, they believe that the game should be played in a certain style. Of course that style is one that they have been good at in practicing for it as it is the superior style since it is the one that all the Pros use. They are not for inclusivity at all because they don't want their game being controlled by noobs who haven't been practicing their style and they need to Git Gud at their style since it isn't one that is easy to learn otherwise it wouldn't be for Pros.

That is the problem X-wing has now.

Agreed. Like I said earlier, the only thing I can remember thinking might need to be banned was Palpatine and only because it caused games to go too long and caused tournament time issues, not because of actual gameplay. This game is actually very good. It has many similarities to chess. If people put the time in to improve, I think there would be far less complaining.

26 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Of course, people generally don't like activist TO's, but we can at least see that location that is literally down the hall from the dev's as a good source.

Exactly. The pope is just a bishop at a certain important place, but his word is a bit more important. Now the metaphor ends for various reasons, but the FFG HQ Marshall could be the only TO that can introduce new rulings.

That prevents vigilante TOs and gives FFG an option to react quickly

Err... you do realize the series you linked to does address the idea that something might be so centralizing it would need to be banned/errata'd, right?

19 hours ago, AceWing said:

My issue is with the community's impulsive response time and again. These boards are constantly flooded with cries for fixes that aren't really needed. I think this is another of those times because I highly doubt all those crying for fixes have put in the time to learn the matchups and counters in one week.

^ Our "community" has a track record of knee-jerk reactions. Some of these are simply in response to something that forces a change in their play style or squad and they don't like having to change. That's obvious with the cries for nerfing or banning as you mentioned.

TS dropped about a month ago with 5 ships. The first thing I thought about was the Nym-Genius combo. It was so obvious. It was an easy plug-in for the Miranda-Nym. A "no brainer". So in ~ 30 days the cries go out that it's OP and NPE. This was faster than the cries against triple jumps! I'm more upset with the backdoor ruling that the uncancelled crit from a TLT triggers Harpooned!

We saw the same thing with 4 TLT Y-Wings to a lesser extent. The situation shook out pretty quickly and you don't hear about that OP combo much anymore.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that TS was an obvious inclusion into an already strong squad. It's too early for a rush to nerf. Give it 6 months to see if it corrects itself. Too many players get flummoxed by a strong combo, don't know how to deal and cry foul. Put your thinking caps on and try building a counter instead of moaning about it and crying "unfair" or "OP" or "NPE".

.

Yeah, the sentiment of this article was echoed in the Epic Subforum this week. It's just as offensive in a blog post.

Street Fighter is a bit of a simplistic example (because you have one character, with no options, so there is a case of 'pick a character who suits your playstyle' but no 'squadbuilding'), but - ultimately, yes. I do limit myself by "self-imposed rules":

• This is not chess, or poker, or go. It is a 'Star Wars' miniature game - a setting to which I have an emotional connection from films, computer games, comics and books
• I do not have an emotional bias to 'black', or 'diamonds'. By comparison, I do have a bias which makes me want to fly Imperial squads, and which makes me not like the idea of mixing eras (so I'll happily fly a First Order squad, or a Galactic Empire squad, but Rear Admiral Chiraneau with Kylo Ren aboard irks me a bit).
• Would I refuse to play against such a squad? Of course not. But would I play such a squad myself? No.

There is an element there which that article doesn't cover - not least because proportionally, there is far less discussion of tactics than list-building (because it's a lot easier to discuss lists on a text forum than tactics)

I accept that self-imposed rule may put me at a disadvantage against that list off the internet. But there's a difference between refusing to use a given squad for fluffy reasons/self-imposed rules, and not trying to master the options of the squad you have taken. Learning tactics and how different deployments and openings with the same squad affect how you play against different squads is, to me, 'gitting gud'.

If you and your gaming group have genuinely played multiple games, with different tactics, and tried to learn or develop different approaches to deal with a squad and you still can't figure out an approach, then, you are allowed to consider there is a problem with balance. That doesn't give you the right to look down on people who do use it because they want to actually win a game, but nor does it give the players who do the right to look down on those who refuse to because they don't use that squad, because for reasons of fluff or gameplay, they don't find it fun to use.

Or, to put it another way:

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Bleh, all this binary thinking. There are dozens of good players who are scrubs by that argument.

Take me for example, a doomed to middle to top third of more or less anything I enter, local tournaments notwithstanding. I’m not a bad player. A low 4-2 or high 3-3 is about where I expect to end up in big competitions, and I’m fine with that. I’m pretty sure that if I chose to play top of meta crud I’d probably do quite well with it, but I wouldn’t have fun because:

1) I really hate mirror matches. Its dull. Really dull. Sometimes if you know you’re of equal skill level you know victory comes with the init roll. - makes me a scrub, apparently.

2) I don’t enjoy playing stuff that my opponent doesn’t enjoy. Would I have fun setting up an undodgeable high ps bombing monstrosity against a fragile low-hit aces list? I’d shred it, it probably wouldn’t be a challenge and my opponent has no path to victory.

3) I like Star Wars. This usually translates to flying something from the films, not some obscure book that a designer read 20 years ago.

so yeah, three artificial rules that hamstrings my chances of winning. By the article, I’m a scrub, and I’m rubbish even though I believe otherwise.

Or, we could admit people play this game in many ways, and describing players as either ‘good’ or ‘scrubs’ is just elitist BS from win at all cost players trying to justify their desire to crush all beneath them.