When Keyan Farlander activates and an opponent's Sheathipede Fenn chooses to receive a stress so that Keyan "can't spend tokens to modify its dice when attacking this round", can Keyan still "remove one stress token to change all of your focus results to hit results".

In other words, is there FAQ precedent that 'spending' and 'removing' tokens are synonymous? Or, is the latter a distinct subset of the former?

6 minutes ago, YourHucklebrry said:

When Keyan Farlander activates and an opponent's Sheathipede Fenn chooses to receive a stress so that Keyan "can't spend tokens to modify its dice when attacking this round", can Keyan still "remove one stress token to change all of your focus results to hit results".

In other words, is there FAQ precedent that 'spending' and 'removing' tokens are synonymous? Or, is the latter a distinct subset of the former?

i'd say, you are modifying your dice, stress is a token, so nope

Just off instinct I'd incline to no as well.

But it all depends on whether FFG uses the terms 'spending' and 'removing' interchangeably or whether they distinguish between them. That's what decides whether Keyan's ability falls within Fenn's, because after all there are many circumstances where you can still modify dice outside of Fenn's ability.

There also might be some precedence with Latts crew. Is there an ability out there that strictly doesn't allow the defender to spend tokens on defence? Omega Leader's is the closest that comes to mind, but that's too all encompassing.

I'm inclined to think Keyan probably can use his pilot ability in the face of Fenn Rau. I know the FAQ states that discarding and removing are identical, but I don't think removing and "spending" are the same. That said, I think this is one which could possibly go either way.

4+ on D6!!!!

I always wonder.... How much energy do chaps/lass spend in searching for rule conflicts.

Ur deffo all Darksiders. ?

I'd be inclined to side with @theBitterFig on this one. Keyan is not "spending" that stress token, therefore Fenn should have no impact on him.

This feels like the eventual FFG ruling will follow their "Bro, don't overthink it," precedent and rule that removing a token to receive an effect is "spending" it. I would probably even lean that way if called in to rule it. But yeah, RAW for that isn't quite there.

Under the rules as written, I don't think you could count "removing" and "spending" as the same thing, because that would create all sorts of weird problems. Just read through the section on Acquiring a Target lock and replace the word "remove" with "spend" and you'll see what I mean.

On page 18, under Spend, a spent token IS removed, but a removed token is not a spent token.

The logical solution would be for FFG to rephrase Keyan to spend the token, because logically, that's what he doing with it.

But then, when has logic ever prevailed here?

RAW, Keyan isn't blocked.

RAI he probably is.

In practice it makes basically no difference because when did you last see Keyan on the table?

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

RAW, Keyan isn't blocked.

RAI he probably is.

In practice it makes basically no difference because when did you last see Keyan on the table?

Late 2015, I think...

16 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

RAW, Keyan isn't blocked.

RAI he probably is.

In practice it makes basically no difference because when did you last see Keyan on the table?

Haha long story short: an attempt to cook up some casual fun for a U-Wing ended up bringing Fenn and Keyan together (and Cassian, in case anyone's curious), which made me wonder if there was any precedent.

47 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

In practice it makes basically no difference because when did you last see Keyan on the table?

I placed 2nd in a tournament with him last year. 2 MoV off winning...

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

RAW, Keyan isn't blocked.

RAI he probably is.

In practice it makes basically no difference because when did you last see Keyan on the table?

Two weeks ago! I flew an Opportunist/Sensor Jammer Keyan with a VI/Luke/Hotshot Copilot Han! It was kind of hilarious.

Remove and spend are not the same. Unless specified otherwise in a future FAQ, Keyan Farlanders ability will work even if Sheathipede Fenn activates his ability.

And shame on anyone on this thread for trying to further pigeon hole Keyan Farlander. HE IS A B-WING PILOT!! Cut him some slack.

Keyan would be allowed to work, we know from several effects Spend and Remove are not the same.

Hotshot Copilot specifically says "spend" so it can be used to get its benefit, despite an effect forcing them to essentially "remove a token" without using the word "Remove"
Not a single effect that triggers off a spent token triggers off a token being stripped off.

Keyan is not magically different to suddenly be considered "spending" a stress token. Given his lack of popularity i doubt they'd eratta him to say "Spend" vs "Remove" either.

I think the only non-focus or non-tl ability that gets neutered by Fenn would be the Interceptor that adds a hit for a spent evade token, and like that'd ever come up because he never gets used even in the prime period of the interceptor.

It's funny how conversations come full circle.

When I first joined this forum, Farlander was brand new and I argued (before they FAQed him) that he couldn't use his ability unless he rolled focus results because the only precedent was Garvin Dreis' spend a focus token ability.

I argued that remove, and spend are separate terms, so there's no precedent for removing a token to change results.

I was flamed hard for that and told the terms were interchangeable.

Now we're arguing the terms are NOT interchangeable.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.